Notes: Cabrera may be on way out
Whispered trade with Pittsburgh includes Burnitz, Craig Wilson
By Mark Feinsand / MLB.com

Melky Cabrera batted .275 with three homers and 28 RBIs in 53 games. (Brita Meng Outzen/MLB.com)

NEW YORK -- General manager Brian Cashman has made it clear that pitching prospect Philip Hughes is as close to untouchable as any player in the Yankees' farm system.
Melky Cabrera on the other hand, may not be.

According to a Major League executive, the Yankees and Pirates have discussed a deal that would send the young outfielder to Pittsburgh in exchange for outfielder Jeromy Burnitz and first baseman/outfielder Craig Wilson.

Pittsburgh originally asked for Hughes earlier in the season, but the Yankees told the Pirates that the right-hander was not available.

"If this was July 31," Cashman said, "I'd be very comfortable saying no to everything that's been put in front of me."

Cashman said that he is in no hurry to make a trade, but with the trade deadline less than three weeks away, it wouldn't be surprising to see New York upgrade its outfield.

"All that matters to me is making the right move," Cashman said. "I don't think how the team plays will dictate anything. I think it depends on the taste of the opportunity; I've had opportunities, but none of them have made sense."

"We still have time to figure out if we need support somewhere to fill a hole -- if there is a hole," Joe Torre said. "Right now, the only position we change personnel on a regular basis is right field."

Cabrera has started 53 games in the outfield for the Yankees this season, batting .275 with three homers and 28 RBIs. Just 21 years old, Cabrera would be an ideal fit for Pittsburgh, which would love to shed the remainder of Burnitz's $6 million salary.

Burnitz, who is hitting .228 with 12 home runs and 37 RBIs in 246 at-bats this season, would also be owed $500,000 for being traded. The 37-year-old Burnitz has hit more than 30 home runs five times during his career, also topping 100 RBIs four times. He has a $6 million option for 2007, but it can be bought out for $700,000.

Wilson, 29, is hitting .268 with 12 homers and 37 RBIs in 231 at-bats for the Pirates this season. He is owed the remainder of his $3.3 million contract and will be a free agent after the season.

Wilson, the longest-tenured member of the Pirates, said it would be bittersweet to see his career in Pittsburgh come to an end in the next few weeks.

"It's also a little exciting," Wilson admitted. "In the event that that you do get traded, it's going to be to someone who is in a spot to contend. It would be something a little different from what we're used to here in August and September."

Missing Jose? When the Yankees traded Jose Contreras to the White Sox for Esteban Loaiza at the trade deadline in 2004, it looked like a pretty even trade.

Contreras had gone 15-7 in parts of two seasons with the Yankees, and was 8-5 with a 5.64 ERA in 2004, while Loaiza was coming off his second straight All-Star appearance.

Loaiza was a disappointment in his two months with the Yankees, while Contreras went on to become one of the best starters in baseball. Contreras entered Friday's start on a 17-game winning streak dating back to last August.

"I felt that for him to be successful, it was going to have to be somewhere else, based on the journey he had taken with the Yankees at that point in time," Cashman said. "Sometimes you need to change scenery to get yourself going again, and I credit Jose Contreras for getting it back on line."

"Unfortunately, things weren't happening here at the time we needed something to happen," Torre said. "I'm happy for him; he's a good kid. At the time, we were just looking for someone with a little more experience."

White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen agreed that Contreras would have had a hard time putting it together in the Bronx, as the pressures that come with playing for the Yankees are unlike any other.

"Contreras is a different type of kid," Guillen said. "[In Chicago], he gained confidence. When he was doing well, everybody was pushing for him. When you play for New York, it's must-win or must-boo, because if you don't perform, you're out of there in a hurry. We can't afford that. If you don't perform for the White Sox, we have a little more patience because of our budget."

First things first: Jason Giambi was in the lineup at first base on Friday night, but Torre said that he will probably use Giambi as the designated hitter more often than not during the second half of the season.

Torre wanted to get both Aaron Guiel and Bernie Williams in the lineup on Friday, so he sat Andy Phillips and used Giambi at first base, penciling Williams in as the DH.

Giambi, who has historically posted much better numbers when playing in the field, has posted a higher average at first base (.275) than as the DH (.244), but his power numbers haven't been affected. In 142 at-bats as a first baseman, Giambi has 13 homers and 35 RBIs; in 123 at-bats as a DH, Giambi has 14 homers and 37 RBIs.

"I think he's over the fact that his numbers are supposedly better the other way around," Torre said.

Bomber bites: Hideki Matsui continues to do his rehab work at Yankee Stadium, targeting a return to the Yankees in mid-to-late August. "He's been working nonstop," Torre said. "I understand he's confident that he'll be back next month, and if that's the case, that's fine." ... Octavio Dotel will pitch in a Minor League rehab game on Saturday for Class A Tampa in the Florida State League. "If everything goes right, he'll be back in no later than two weeks," Cashman said. "It could be earlier; we'll see." ... Kevin Reese suffered a shoulder injury on Thursday night while playing for Triple-A Columbus. Cashman described Reese as being "banged up" but said the club was still awaiting test results to determine the severity of the injury.

Quotable: "I hope we can thank him in October. Of course, he could be thanking himself." -- Torre, on Guillen managing the American League to a win in the All-Star Game, earning home-field advantage in the World Series





Say it ain't so.

:(

Not happening. Melky is hitting well right now and he has a much better glove than Wilson. And OBTW he is 8 years younger!

Burnitz blows, cmon. What a joke of a trade. Cashman prob shot this down in a sec.

Yeah, great. Send a guy who could start and produce for the next 15 seasons away to Pittsburgh to rot for over-rated over the hill shmucks.

This is complete bull**** if we ever trade Melky. Another clutch performance by him tonight in the Bottom 8th to drive in the then leading run at 4-3.

Go look at Craig Wilson's stats. He's a VERY good hitter and thats exactly what the yankees need. Higher carrer OPS then matsui... the yankees have to do this trade if it's available.

Ahahahahaha... That'd be hilarious.

Ahahahahaha... That'd be hilarious.
Why would the yankees adding a 850 OPS hitter be hilarious?

Go look at Craig Wilson's stats. He's a VERY good hitter and thats exactly what the yankees need. Higher carrer OPS then matsui... the yankees have to do this trade if it's available.

No way. Wilson is a slouch in the field and is not a great hitter by any stretch. I actually like him, but Melky has upside, Wilson can only plateau from here on out.

Melky is 21 and seems to doing what Cano did last year. Working his way to having a good rookie season.

No way. Wilson is a slouch in the field and is not a great hitter by any stretch. I actually like him, but Melky has upside, Wilson can only plateau from here on out.

Melky is 21 and seems to doing what Cano did last year. Working his way to having a good rookie season.I like melky but he's not a good hitter. a 730 OPS for a corner outfielder is unaccepable. Wilson is a MUCH better hitter then he is.

Why would the yankees adding a 850 OPS hitter be hilarious?
Wilson and Burnitz are crap.

Wilson and Burnitz are crap.
Good to know you think an 850 OPS is crap.. LMAO

I like melky but he's not a good hitter. a 730 OPS for a corner outfielder is unaccepable. Wilson is a MUCH better hitter then he is.


Maybe, right now. But in the future? Must we continue to dump our young talent to other teams.

Melky is starting to produce. Those who have seen him alot in the minors like mbn will tell you, he hasnt even hitten his stride yet. His bat will get hot soon and we all know he carries a plus glove and arm. He's 21. We must keep him unless we get blown away. The Yankee teams of old had guys like Melky on them.

Andy Philips needs to check himself and get some hits or he could be sent down. His glove is nothing special at all and he isnt hitting. Carlos Pena call up soon.....?

Maybe, right now. But in the future? Must we continue to dump our young talent to other teams.

Melky is starting to produce. Those who have seen him alot in the minors like mbn will tell you, he hasnt even hitten his stride yet. His bat will get hot soon and we all know he carries a plus glove and arm. He's 21. We must keep him unless we get blown away. The Yankee teams of old had guys like Melky on them.

Andy Philips needs to check himself and get some hits or he could be sent down. His glove is nothing special at all and he isnt hitting. Carlos Pena call up soon.....?
I'm never for trading prospects but you have to give up somthing to get somthing and i'd much rather trade melky then hughes clippard or duncan.

I'm never for trading prospects but you have to give up somthing to get somthing and i'd much rather trade melky then hughes clippard or duncan.


Really, whats the point of trading Melky for another OFer? You'd still have Aaron frickin Guiel out there.

Melky is a switch hitting 21 yr old rookie who is the best defensive corner outfielder we have had in ages and is starting to turn it on with his bat.
I'm not trading him for Craig Wilson who cant play defense and isnt that great of a hitter.

Really, whats the point of trading Melky for another OFer? You'd still have Aaron frickin Guiel out there.

Melky is a switch hitting 21 yr old rookie who is the best defensive corner outfielder we have had in ages and is starting to turn it on with his bat.
I'm not trading him for Craig Wilson who cant play defense and isnt that great of a hitter.
Wilson is a better hitter then Melky and Burnitz would platoon with Bernie. This trade makes the yankees better.

F Duncan. Screw freakin' Duncan. He freakin' blows and has no spot on this team with A-Rod, Giambi and Phillips. He should be traded, not Melky.

F Duncan. Screw freakin' Duncan. He freakin' blows and has no spot on this team with A-Rod, Giambi and Phillips. He should be traded, not Melky.Get a clue dude Duncan is still a top 3 prospect in the yankee system and he's putting up very good power numbers in trenton at only 21. Andy Phillips has no future with the yankees.

Get a clue dude Duncan is still a top 3 prospect in the yankee system and he's putting up very good power numbers in trenton at only 21. Andy Phillips has no future with the yankees.

Yeah a top 3 prospect who was dropped from AAA to AA. There's your clue Sherlock.

Andy Phillips has no future? Okay. He's what? 28 years old? He's got plenty of more years to contribute.

Stop being such a biased fan of the Yankees. We are mostly Yankee fans here but you just take it to another level where the FO and the team can do no wrong. Bull****. Cashman would be a fool to do this trade. Eric Duncan blows. Take this Top 3 Prospect **** and shove it up your ass.

Wilson is a better hitter then Melky and Burnitz would platoon with Bernie. This trade makes the yankees better.


He is also a terrible outfielder and isnt going to improve anymore as a player.

Where is the patience? Melky is starting to hit now and he saves runs with his glove. My god give the kid a break, he's a frickin rookie not a 8 year vet. His numbers will only get better from an offensive standpoint.

Yeah a top 3 prospect who was dropped from AAA to AA. There's your clue Sherlock.

Andy Phillips has no future? Okay. He's what? 28 years old? He's got plenty of more years to contribute.

Stop being such a biased fan of the Yankees. We are mostly Yankee fans here but you just take it to another level where the FO and the team can do no wrong. Bull****. Cashman would be a fool to do this trade. Eric Duncan blows. Take this Top 3 Prospect **** and shove it up your ass.


Duncan had a bad back in AAA and was very young to start out there.
Philips is garbage, he was a career minor leaguer for a reason.

Duncan is just 21 and he's hitting at AA.

Duncan had a bad back in AAA and was very young to start out there.
Philips is garbage, he was a career minor leaguer for a reason.

Duncan is just 21 and he's hitting at AA.

Show me the day he's at least hitting .300 in AAA then we can talk.

Excuses excuses with this back problem. Everybody gets on Pavano for his problems, I'm getting on this kid Duncan who for 3 years all I heard was he's going to be up in the majors soon. Really? Show me.

Yeah a top 3 prospect who was dropped from AAA to AA. There's your clue Sherlock.

Andy Phillips has no future? Okay. He's what? 28 years old? He's got plenty of more years to contribute.

Stop being such a biased fan of the Yankees. We are mostly Yankee fans here but you just take it to another level where the FO and the team can do no wrong. Bull****. Cashman would be a fool to do this trade. Eric Duncan blows. Take this Top 3 Prospect **** and shove it up your ass.
Eric Duncan is a 21 year old with MASSIVE natural power who they rushed to AAA way too early and that combined with the fact that he was injured earlier this year makes him still clearly a prospect. He's ranked 38th in baseball on a midseason list. Andy Phillips is a 29 year old carrer minor leaguer who can't hit major league pitching. Andy's VORP is -6. That means that he's LESS VALUABLE then a player the yankees could sign off the street. I don't know where i said the FO can do no wrong. They did a HORRIBLE job with the bench this offseason and because of that we have total crap like cairo bubba and phillips playing every day and we have to rely on melky who dosn't hit nearly enough to be a corner oufielder. cashman did an AWFUL job this offseason or the yankees would be in first place right now.

Show me the day he's at least hitting .300 in AAA then we can talk.
Batting AVG means NOTHING dude. Duncan's OPS is over 830 ISOp over 200.

He is also a terrible outfielder and isnt going to improve anymore as a player.

Where is the patience? Melky is starting to hit now and he saves runs with his glove. My god give the kid a break, he's a frickin rookie not a 8 year vet. His numbers will only get better from an offensive standpoint.
Sorry man 730 OPS just dosn't cut it.

Batting AVG means NOTHING dude. Duncan's OPS is over 830 ISOp over 200.

Show me him in the majors. Show me this talent that for 3 years now all we've heard is how he should be in the league any time now. What a crock of ****. You bust on Phillips because he's 29, on the rate of Duncan he'll be down there until he's 25.

Sorry man 730 OPS just dosn't cut it.

Do you have an obsession with OPS? Melky is 21, improving more then your boy Duncan, and has a pretty damn good glove out there in LF.

Show me him in the majors. Show me this talent that for 3 years now all we've heard is how he should be in the league any time now. What a crock of ****. You bust on Phillips because he's 29, on the rate of Duncan he'll be down there until he's 25.
You can't compare a 21 year old who's still one of the youngest guys in AA to a 29 year old carrer minor leaguer man thats just stupid. Most good hitters are into the minors much longer then Duncan has been.

Do you have an obsession with OPS? Melky is 21, improving more then your boy Duncan, and has a pretty damn good glove out there in LF.I do have an opsession with OPS because is the best single stat for judging hitters. It takes your OBP (you ability to get on base) and add's that to your SLG% which is weighted. In BA a homer a triple and a double are all worth the same but thats not the case with OPS. If you have a good OPS not only will you have to get on base at a pretty good clip but you also need to hit extra base hits and homers. Thats why giambi his having a great season even though he's hitting under 260 his average is meaningless.

I do have an opsession with OPS because is the best single stat for judging hitters. It takes your OBP (you ability to get on base) and add's that to your SLG% which is weighted. In BA a homer a triple and a double are all worth the same but thats not the case with OPS. If you have a good OPS not only will you have to get on base at a pretty good clip but you also need to hit extra base hits and homers. Thats why giambi his having a great season even though he's hitting under 260 his average is meaningless.

Giambi is having a great season minus the BA, agreed, but...BUT, Duncan still has not proved ****. I don't get how people can be so high on somebody who hasn't even proved anything in the Minor Leagues yet.

Giambi is having a great season minus the BA, agreed, but...BUT, Duncan still has not proved ****. I don't get how people can be so high on somebody who hasn't even proved anything in the Minor Leagues yet.
People are high on Duncan because he's only 21, has great natural power and is putting up very good OPS and ISOp numbers in a pitchers league.

You can't compare a 21 year old who's still one of the youngest guys in AA to a 29 year old carrer minor leaguer man thats just stupid. Most good hitters are into the minors much longer then Duncan has been.


And you cant compare a 21 year old who's the youngest guy on the Yankees to a 29 year old major leaguer in pittsburgh. :)

OPS is an important stat, but you have to take alot of things into consideration when you're comparing 1 players OPS to another.
There is nothing wrong with a 2nd baseman like Cano because he doesnt hit alot of home runs. He's a .325 hitter and batting average is a great stat I dont understand why you seem to down it alittle?

And you cant compare a 21 year old who's the youngest guy on the Yankees to a 29 year old major leaguer in pittsburgh. :)

OPS is an important stat, but you have to take alot of things into consideration when you're comparing 1 players OPS to another.
There is nothing wrong with a 2nd baseman like Cano because he doesnt hit alot of home runs. He's a .325 hitter and batting average is a great stat I dont understand why you seem to down it alittle?Cano is overrated this year because of his BA. He's not having as good a year as his avg would have you believe. It's not just that he's not hitting homers. He's not walking at all and not hitting as many XBH's as he did last year. That being said he's still the best 2B in the AL.

Cano is overrated this year because of his BA. He's not having as good a year as his avg would have you believe. It's not just that he's not hitting homers. He's not walking at all and not hitting as many XBH's as he did last year.


He's 22. He's taking the Don Mattingly approach to hitting.
Take it the other way. And then as you get old you pull the ball and then you hit the home runs. The XBHs will come. But I'll take a .325 hitting second baseman who covers the entire plate with his swing and doesnt try to always hit the long ball and strike out.
Giambi was incredible in Oakland because he'd do that and hit the long ball. Very rare to see a AVG and Power guy these days.

He's 22. He's taking the Don Mattingly approach to hitting.
Take it the other way. And then as you get old you pull the ball and then you hit the home runs. The XBHs will come. But I'll take a .325 hitting second baseman who covers the entire plate with his swing and doesnt try to always hit the long ball and strike out.
Giambi was incredible in Oakland because he'd do that and hit the long ball. Very rare to see a AVG and Power guy these days.
I'm not saying to trade Cano he's still the best 2B in the AL though that not saying much...
Giambi was great in oakland because he had OBP's in the 470s and slugging over 660. those are hall of fame numbers and tell much more about how good he was then his AVG.

I'm not saying to trade Cano he's still the best 2B in the AL though that not saying much...
Giambi was great in oakland because he had OBP's in the 470s and slugging over 660. those are hall of fame numbers and tell much more about how good he was then his AVG.


Well, I believe it ties in.

Back in Oakland, Giambi would often take the pitches on the outside part of the plate the other way for singles and doubles, even home runs, now he just pulls almost everything, I'm guessing he strikes out more in NY then he did in Oakland by a fairly significant difference. He also knubs more balls off the end of the bat because he is constantly in pull mode and he flys out more and obviously hits more weak ground balls then he did in Oakland. So that greatly effects his batting average and OBP, as well as his SLG % altho to a lesser degree. The short porch in right field is a great thing for guys like Derek Jeter and even some of Giambi's short home runs barely clear the fence, but it also effected his approach to the plate in a negative way (Giambi) and his numbers were never the same really. Sure he got off the roids, but his approach was different than his Oakland days, largely due to the seemingly ease of just going out over the plate and trying to yank every pitch over that short right porch.

Just food for thought. Good discussion.

Well, I believe it ties in.

Back in Oakland, Giambi would often take the pitches on the outside part of the plate the other way for singles and doubles, even home runs, now he just pulls almost everything, I'm guessing he strikes out more in NY then he did in Oakland by a fairly significant difference. He almost knubs more balls off the end of the bat because he is constantly in pull mode and he flys out more and obviously hits more weak ground balls. So that greatly effects his batting average and OBP, as well as his SLG % altho to a lesser degree.

Just food for thought. Good discussion.You make a good point. The fact that he's beccome more of a pull hitter means they play the shift on him and that takes off about 50 points off his batting avg just as it does for guys like Delgado and Ortiz.

You make a good point. The fact that he's beccome more of a pull hitter means they play the shift on him and that takes off about 50 points off his batting avg just as it does for guys like Delgado and Ortiz.

Exactly. If Giambi was the complete hitter he once was they would never put that big shift on him. He would just take the outside pitch the other way, putting the ball right thru the gigantic hole on the left side of the Giambi shift. The truly great hitters are the ones who you cant play defense against (Gwynn, Jeter, Ichiro etc etc). They use all parts of the ballpark and can cover any part of the plate with their swing, inside out the inside pitch, slicing it the other way etc etc. Thats why I love Cano, he just takes what he gets and doesnt try to do too much with it. Giambi used to be this way + the power. Thats what made him so special. Now its just Power with him. Not bad, but definetly not half the player he was in Oakland.

Exactly. If Giambi was the complete hitter he once was they would never put that big shift on him. He would just take the outside pitch the other way, putting the ball right thru the gigantic hole on the left side of the Giambi shift. The truly great hitters are the ones who you cant play defense against (Gwynn, Jeter, Ichiro etc etc). They use all parts of the ballpark and can cover any part of the plate with their swing, inside out the inside pitch, slicing it the other way etc etc. Thats why I love Cano, he just takes what he gets and doesnt try to do too much with it. Giambi used to be this way + the power. Thats what made him so special. Now its just Power with him. Not bad, but definetly not half the player he was in Oakland.Just because cano hits the ball the other way though dosn't mean you can compare him to giambi's oakland years which were some of the best years in baseball history. That 325 avg is better then cano has been this year as his OBP shows. Just because he's a better oppisite field hitter then giambi right now dosn't change that.

Just because cano hits the ball the other way though dosn't mean you can compare him to giambi's oakland years which were some of the best years in baseball history. That 325 avg is better then cano has been this year as his OBP shows. Just because he's a better oppisite field hitter then giambi right now dosn't change that.


I'm not comparing Cano, as I am comparing what Giambi was to what Cano is, minus the powe for Cano.

Giambi was really the only hitter at the time that was challenging for a batting title and the home run title. He was very special. Now, not so much. There are plenty of guys like him now. I think if that short porch was not always the first thing in his mind, trying to earn his paycheck with the long ball, he'd be a much more complete hitter, hitting for a much higher BA, higher OBP, maybe a few less home runs, but a much much better hitter and certainly more valuable to the team. Something like .320, 35 home runs, 145 RBIs. Instead of .270, 45 home runs and similar RBI totals.

Case in point, look at Giambi's BA in Oakland with RISP. He was 1 of the most clutch hitters in MLB at that time. Now, with the Yankees and RISP he trys to be the man too much and hitting the long ball, and he is not half the clutch hitter he once was with RISP. In Oakland he took what he got on the outside plate when it came and he drove it the other way for singles and doubles and was a very high BA with RISP probably around .350+ I would guess. Now? He almost always looks to pull the ball and gets out far more often then he used to wRISP, not nearly as valuable as he could have been for us.

I was basically just saying Giambi back in Oakland was Jeter/Cano + Giambi instead of just Giambi.

RISP and close and late numbers are very suspect over one year. Runs in the first inning are just as good as ones in the 8th and giambi is producing runs at hall of famer levels even if he's not putting up his oakland numbers.

id like to keep cano and melky both

abreau may be a better player now than either of them, but it won't be that way in 3-4 years

id like to keep cano and melky both

abreau may be a better player now than either of them, but it won't be that way in 3-4 years
i HIGHLY doubt that cano or melky will ever be as good hitters as bobby abreu.

Go look at Craig Wilson's stats. He's a VERY good hitter and thats exactly what the yankees need. Higher carrer OPS then matsui... the yankees have to do this trade if it's available.

Wilson is a K machine.

2 names for you guys....

Rickey Ledee
Shane Spencer

Wilson is a K machine.
Strikeouts are another pretty meaningless stat if a guy has a good OPS.

2 names for you guys....

Rickey Ledee
Shane Spencer


Feel free to throw Clay Bellinger and Chad Curtis into that list.

Sometimes the smallest of stars come up the biggest on the big stage.
It's always been the Yankees MO when they win a world series, some nobody gets a huge hit to help them win the game or series. Curtis, Ledee, Soriano in the 01 WS, Cano last year vs the Angels came up huge, Sojo, Vizcaino etc etc.

Strikeouts are another pretty meaningless stat if a guy has a good OPS.


You love that OPS stat dont you. Its a good blanket, but it has some holes.

You love that OPS stat dont you. Its a good blanket, but it has some holes.
It you have to judge players on one stat OPS is by far the best.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2617

Here's a good artice about why k's are meaningless.

Feel free to throw Clay Bellinger and Chad Curtis into that list.

Sometimes the smallest of stars come up the biggest on the big stage.
It's always been the Yankees MO when they win a world series, some nobody gets a huge hit to help them win the game or series. Curtis, Ledee, Soriano in the 01 WS, Cano last year vs the Angels came up huge, Sojo, Vizcaino etc etc.
Thats not somthing you can bank on when building a team.

i HIGHLY doubt that cano or melky will ever be as good hitters as bobby abreu.


and abreu won't be as good a hitter in 3-4 years as those 2 will

and abreu won't be as good a hitter in 3-4 years as those 2 will
I'd trade melky for 3 years of abreu or wilson in a second. Abreu allows the yankees to let sheffield walk and have a good RF to step right in and Wilson gives them a solid DH/OF this year and a guy they can resign to play DH/Bench next year. Melky's ceiling is a good 4th outfielder, He'll never hit like abreu and he probably won't hit like wilson. Cano the yankees can't trade becuase he plays 2B and they have no one to replace him with.

and abreu won't be as good a hitter in 3-4 years as those 2 will
http://forums.sohh.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I love Craig as a person, but I just don't think he has much of a place in the buc's future anymore. He would be a decent DH, and he's not really that bad in the outfield, he can spot start there or at first. And Burnitz can be decent lefty bat off the bench. We don't really need either of them. I don't know why we signed burnitz at all, maybe for the exact purpose to trade him.

Burnitz, C.Wilson, and Kip Wells for Melky and Hughes. Final offer. ;)
Maybe we'll throw in humberto cota too.

Go look at Craig Wilson's stats. He's a VERY good hitter and thats exactly what the yankees need. Higher carrer OPS then matsui... the yankees have to do this trade if it's available.


We agree on something though why the BUCS would want Melky other than in a cut payroll move is beyond me. . :cheers:

2 names for you guys....

Rickey Ledee
Shane Spencer

And two for you....
Melky Cabrera.
Andy Phillips.

Wilson would be a good move as everyone is trying to rip the Yanks off.

Strikeouts are another pretty meaningless stat if a guy has a good OPS.
Runner on 2nd, he's the tying run, and there is 1 out. You'll take a strikeout over a fly ball?

Runner on 2nd, he's the tying run, and there is 1 out. You'll take a strikeout over a fly ball?
Obviously you can pull out indivdual situations where a strikeout hurts you but only any period of time there is no negitive effect on run production.

Oh, and BTW, Cano isn't the best 2nd basemen in the AL. Jose Lopez is.

Oh, and BTW, Cano isn't the best 2nd basemen in the AL. Jose Lopez is.
Just ignore a silly little thing called stats.

Just ignore a silly little thing called stats.
You could, too. More runs scored, Lopez has more RBIs, grounded into less double plays, has a better slugging percentage... The only stats Cano has on him is AVG, OBP, and K's.

There is more to life than OPS.

You could, too. More runs scored, Lopez has more RBIs, grounded into less double plays, has a better slugging percentage... The only stats Cano has on him is AVG, OBP, and K's.

There is more to life than OPS.50 point higher OPS = Better hitter every time. You're just one of those met fans who will do anything to bash the yankees because you need to do that in order to validate your team.

Come on Mike...OBP? Have you ever heard of an award given out after the season for the best OBP? Have you ever heard of a player being traded based on OBP? Has a player ever been inducted into the HOF based on OBP?

Come on Mike...OBP? Have you ever heard of an award given out after the season for the best OBP? Have you ever heard of a player being traded based on OBP? Has a player ever been inducted into the HOF based on OBP?
If more teams made personel decisions based on OBP and SLG and not meaningless stats like K's and batting avg then more teams woud be able to win with less money.

50 point higher OPS = Better hitter every time. You're just one of those met fans who will do anything to bash the yankees because you need to do that in order to validate your team.
Yeah, that is exactly what it is :rolleyes:

I don't honestly give a damn about the Yankees, but you have to be the biggest biased poster towards the Yankees I have ever seen in my life. You obsess over stats that are important but need to work with other stats. OPS is good, but when every other stat doesn't lean your way, just seriously, admit your mistakes.

It's also pathetic that you attack me for being a Mets fan who will do anything to bash the Yankees. Honestly, **** you. You don't know me, so don't jump to conclusions. You're just insecure because you know there is a good chance your team won't make the postseason.

Yeah, that is exactly what it is :rolleyes:

I don't honestly give a damn about the Yankees, but you have to be the biggest biased poster towards the Yankees I have ever seen in my life. You obsess over stats that are important but need to work with other stats. OPS is good, but when every other stat doesn't lean your way, just seriously, admit your mistakes.

It's also pathetic that you attack me for being a Mets fan who will do anything to bash the Yankees. Honestly, **** you. You don't know me, so don't jump to conclusions. You're just insecure because you know there is a good chance your team won't make the postseason.

You need a hug Exit???? I am here for you.
http://www.mahjoob.com/en/forums/images/smilies/hug.gif

Yeah, that is exactly what it is :rolleyes:

I don't honestly give a damn about the Yankees, but you have to be the biggest biased poster towards the Yankees I have ever seen in my life. You obsess over stats that are important but need to work with other stats. OPS is good, but when every other stat doesn't lean your way, just seriously, admit your mistakes.

It's also pathetic that you attack me for being a Mets fan who will do anything to bash the Yankees. Honestly, **** you. You don't know me, so don't jump to conclusions. You're just insecure because you know there is a good chance your team won't make the postseason.What does Cano vs Lopez have to do with the yankees making the playoffs? Their are certian stats that mean somthing and there are certian stats that don't mean anything you keep bringing up stats that don't mean anything like K's AVG and DP's and try to use them to prove your point when the better stats already take those into account. I adhere to the same stats about every player yet i'm bias LOL

You think the Mets farm system is better then the yankees system RIGHT NOW based on Wright Reyes and Kazmir who have been in the majors for 3 year. Thats all anyone needs to know about how well you know what you're talking about. Thats the EXACT SAME THING as a yankee fan saying their system is great NOW because of jeter Rivera and Bernie. They are both morinic statements.

If more teams made personel decisions based on OBP and SLG and not meaningless stats like K's and batting avg then more teams woud be able to win with less money.

But, they don't! Teams weigh everything from how a player hits or pitches in day games compared to night games, how he plays on the road compared to home games, etc. A lot of stats go into decision making these days because of the the money...OBP is one of them, not the key factor.

[QUOTE=Exit 117;273515]Yeah, that is exactly what it is :rolleyes:

I don't honestly give a damn about the Yankees, but you have to be the biggest biased poster towards the Yankees I have ever seen in my life. You obsess over stats that are important but need to work with other stats. OPS is good, but when every other stat doesn't lean your way, just seriously, admit your mistakes.

It's also pathetic that you attack me for being a Mets fan who will do anything to bash the Yankees. Honestly, **** you. You don't know me, so don't jump to conclusions. You're just insecure because you know there is a good chance your team won't make the postseason.[/QUOTE

A good chance the Yanks won't make the postseason? Where did you come up with that?

But, they don't! Teams weigh everything from how a player hits or pitches in day games compared to night games, how he plays on the road compared to home games, etc. A lot of stats go into decision making these days because of the the money...OBP is one of them, not the key factor.
Thats not true acctualy. the teams that have done the best job in personal lately like the red sox the a's and the bluejays. Weigh OBP and OPS much higher then other meaningless stats.

What does Cano vs Lopez have to do with the yankees making the playoffs?
And what does my so-called insecurity about the Mets and having to validate them have to do with Cano vs. Lopez?

Their are certian stats that mean somthing and there are certian stats that don't mean anything you keep bringing up stats that don't mean anything like K's AVG and DP's and try to use them to prove your point when the better stats already take those into account. I adhere to the same stats about every player yet i'm bias LOL
DP's are important, just ask A-Rod who GIDP'd last year in the playoffs in the 9th inning with nobody out. K's, I more or less agree with you about, as I said before. And average, I didn't even use it in my argument you thick-skulled moron. You ARE being biased because you're only using ONE stat and IGNORING the rest because they don't agree with you.

You think the Mets farm system is better then the yankees system RIGHT NOW based on Wright Reyes and Kazmir who have been in the majors for 3 year. Thats all anyone needs to know about how well you know what you're talking about. Thats the EXACT SAME THING as a yankee fan saying their system is great NOW because of jeter Rivera and Bernie. They are both morinic statements.
This entire thing right here was a ****ing moronic statement because I DIDN'T SAY IT YOU JACKASS. Please, quote me where I said this. Do it. Right now.

Thats not true acctualy. the teams that have done the best job in personal lately like the red sox the a's and the bluejays. Weigh OBP and OPS much higher then other meaningless stats.

That's your own personal opinion. Show me where you've read where a player has been traded based on OBP and OPS.

And what does my so-called insecurity about the Mets and having to validate them have to do with Cano vs. Lopez?


DP's are important, just ask A-Rod who GIDP'd last year in the playoffs in the 9th inning with nobody out. K's, I more or less agree with you about, as I said before. And average, I didn't even use it in my argument you thick-skulled moron. You ARE being biased because you're only using ONE stat and IGNORING the rest because they don't agree with you.


This entire thing right here was a ****ing moronic statement because I DIDN'T SAY IT YOU JACKASS. Please, quote me where I said this. Do it. Right now.

1. Cano is clearly a better hitter then Lopez based on his stats and if you're arguing it either you're a complete moron or you have an agenda. The "one stat" I'm using TAKES INTO CONSIDERATION all the other stats that mean anything.
2. Good take one situation where arod hit into a DP to show that the DP stat over a season means anything LOL thats the definition of small sample size.
3. Maybe it wasn't you who said that about the system. If not i apologize.

That's your own personal opinion. Show me where you've read where a player has been traded based on OBP and OPS.
Read the book Moneyball.

1. Cano is clearly a better hitter then Lopez based on his stats and if you're arguing it either you're a complete moron or you have an agenda. The "one stat" I'm using TAKES INTO CONSIDERATION all the other stats that mean anything.
2. Good take one situation where arod hit into a DP to show that the DP stat over a season means anything LOL thats the definition of small sample size.
3. Maybe it wasn't you who said that about the system. If not i apologize.
1. Maybe Cano is a better hitter, maybe not, but Lopez is more valuable to his team, therefore a better player.
2. All DP's kill any potential rallies to add runs.
3. It definitely wasn't me.

1. Maybe Cano is a better hitter, maybe not, but Lopez is more valuable to his team, therefore a better player.
2. All DP's kill any potential rallies to add runs.
3. It definitely wasn't me.
1. Wrong again cano's raplacement value is higher therefore he is by definition more valuable. It's not alot higher but it's higher non the less.
2. In one game DP's kill you. Over the course of a season they have no effect on run production.

Not sure how that would make the Yankees any better.

Not sure how that would make the Yankees any better.
Wilson is a much better hitter then anyone the yankees have at DH or Corner OF.

Read the book Moneyball.

Are you kidding me? Is that where you're getting this info from? Michael Lewis the author uses Billy Beane the GM as an example on how to run baseball operations...it's an unordox way of running a team...so, how many WS rings has Billy won with this approach to the game?

I'm surprised being the big Yankees fan you are, you would either consider this book...believe me, Yankee brass haven't read the book. And don't give me the BS that they need to.

Are you kidding me? Is that where you're getting this info from? Michael Lewis the author uses Billy Beane the GM as an example on how to run baseball operations...it's an unordox way of running a team...so, how many WS rings as Billy won with this approach to the game?

I'm surprised being the big Yankees fan you are, you would either consider this book...believe me, Yankee brass haven't read the book. And don't give me the BS that they need to.
That kind of approach is accutaly getting more and more widespread in baseball and The Blue Jays and Red Sox run their teams like that now. It's not about WS rings in theory. It's about judging value in players. The a's win with a 40 million dollar payroll because they know how to evaluate players and get more bang for the buck. The playoffs are basicly a crapshoot.

I wish the yankees would run their team alot more like the a's jays and boston do. If they did they wouldn't have useless players like Cairo Crosby Phillips and Stennett killing their team. And they might have had some depth to compensite for their injuries.

That kind of approach is accutaly getting more and more widespread in baseball and The Blue Jays and Red Sox run their teams like that now. It's not about WS rings in theory. It's about judging value in players. The a's win with a 40 million dollar payroll because they know how to evaluate players and get more bang for the buck. The playoffs are basicly a crapshoot.

I wish the yankees would run their team alot more like the a's jays and boston do. If they did they wouldn't have useless players like Cairo Crosby Phillips and Stennett killing their team. And they might have had some depth to compensite for their injuries.

The bottom line is still winning WS rings as much as you want to down play it to support your opinion. Who cares what the A's win during the season? It's the fall classic that counts.

Yeah, it's Cairo, Crosby, Phillips and Stennet killing this team...:rolleyes:

The bottom line is still winning WS rings as much as you want to down play it to support your opinion. Who cares what the A's win during the season? It's the fall classic that counts.

Yeah, it's Cairo, Crosby, Phillips and Stennet killing this team...:rolleyes:
Obviously the yankees want to win WS and they don't have the money problems the a's do so they don't have to rely on that kind of evaluation as much but where it could've really helped them is building a bench. they had NO DEPTH when matsui and sheffield went down and they had to play completely useless players because they did a horrible job this offseason.

Cairo has played like 2 weeks in a row now and he's KILLED the team because he can't hit. they had no decent utility infileder to prepare for any injuries.

Stennett is so horrible. BOTH HITTING and behind the plate that posada is on pace to play a CARRER HIGH in games because having stennett in the lineup KILLS the team and at 34 posada's innings will catch up to him in the 2nd half.

Phillips is playing every day basicly and hsn't done anything for a month not to mention his JOKE under 700 OPS.

If the yankees had players who would've contributed to the team instead of this garbage they would be in first place and thats where better player evaluation in the offseason would come in.

Read the book Moneyball.


I knew this is where you get your nonsense from.

Moneyball = Zito-Mulder-Hudson and a juiced up Giambi not some BS Beane used to sell a book.

It also produced zero WS rings.

I knew this is where you get your nonsense from.

Moneyball = Zito-Mulder-Hudson and a juiced up Giambi not some BS Beane used to sell a book.

It also produced zero WS rings.They made the playoffs consistantly with a 40 million dollar payroll and they are gonna do it again this year without Hudson Mulder Tejada or Giambi. The playoffs are a complete crapshoot as the yankees have found out the last 2 years.

Yeah, it's Cairo, Crosby, Phillips and Stennet killing this team...:rolleyes:


Wow. Do you think they're actually helping? Having those 4 guys at the bottom of our lineup KILLS us. They cant hit.

Our pitching has been fine. Johnsons been good over the past month or so and Wright has been a lot better than any of us thought. Another bat would be amazing.

They made the playoffs consistantly with a 40 million dollar payroll and they are gonna do it again this year without Hudson Mulder Tejada or Giambi. The playoffs are a complete crapshoot as the yankees have found out the last 2 years.

Not without Zito-Mulder and Hudson they haven't and this year is no lock.

Not without Zito-Mulder and Hudson they haven't and this year is no lock.They are in the playoff hunt every year with a 40 million dollar payroll. There are lessons in the way they do business for every team.

Wow. Do you think they're actually helping? Having those 4 guys at the bottom of our lineup KILLS us. They cant hit.

Our pitching has been fine. Johnsons been good over the past month or so and Wright has been a lot better than any of us thought. Another bat would be amazing.

So, you're for one of these Yankee fans that wants an All Star at ever position. Relax, we have an entire half of baseball left.

So, you're for one of these Yankee fans that wants an All Star at ever position. Relax, we have an entire half of baseball left.

There is a HUGE difference between having an "an All Star at ever position" and having solid role players who contribute to the team and don't have negitive replacement values. The yankees don't have that right now.

So, you're for one of these Yankee fans that wants an All Star at ever position. Relax, we have an entire half of baseball left.


Not even close. Stinnett is a borderline major leage player, he blows. Cairo and Bubba are automatic outs when playing.

The Yankee pitching has been more than adequate this season, its the bottom of the lineup that hurts.

Not even close. Stinnett is a borderline major leage player, he blows. Cairo and Bubba are automatic outs when playing.

The Yankee pitching has been more than adequate this season, its the bottom of the lineup that hurts.
Stennett is a borderline MINOR LEAGUE player. Same with Bubba and the yankees have to clear cairo just like NL teams clear the pitcher.

So, you're for one of these Yankee fans that wants an All Star at ever position. Relax, we have an entire half of baseball left.


The problem is some of our Yankee fans do not know Baseball prior to 1996.
They are spoiled and thus you cannot talk anything anti Yankee as a BB discussion without personal attacks.
Ever since these posters were in Little League the Yanks have always been "stacked" and the play-offs were a sure thing.

As a point of reference could you imagine how hard a Met fan would be killed on this forum if we posted that Melky Cabrera was worth anything other than being a very nice kid and a solid 4th outfielder.

Stennett is a borderline MINOR LEAGUE player. Same with Bubba and the yankees have to clear cairo just like NL teams clear the pitcher.


I agree.

Look at the white sox bench. They have Mackowiak Osuna Cintron and Gload all hitting close to 300 and playing decent D. They all CONTRIBUTE TO THE TEAM. If the yankees had that good a bench they would be 5 up on boston at least.

Wilson has had one good season and Burnitz failed miserably in New York twice with the Mets.

I don't see the need to add a hitter. Cabrera is fine and I expect him to be the starting RF next season.

You want to get someone to come off the bench as a PH go bring back Ruben Sierra who just got released from the Twins.

Unless the Yanks are getting pitching Cabrera stays.

Wilson has had one good season and Burnitz failed miserably in New York twice with the Mets.

I don't see the need to add a hitter. Cabrera is fine and I expect him to be the starting RF next season.

You want to get someone to come off the bench as a PH go bring back Ruben Sierra who just got released from the Twins.

Unless the Yanks are getting pitching Cabrera stays.
There is NO CHANCE that melky is gonna start in RF for the yankees with a 740 OPS. Ruben is done.

There is NO CHANCE that melky is gonna start in RF for the yankees with a 740 OPS. Ruben is done.

I don't see them resigning Sheffield after his contract is up and with A-Rod and Giambi they are fine with power. I still don't think we have seen the best of Cabrera and he is what 21-22 yrs old.

Kinda hard to give up on a kid who basically came back from the abyss after his disasterous call-up last year. He is some moxie to him. Something this team has lacked the last couple of seasons.

I don't see them resigning Sheffield after his contract is up and with A-Rod and Giambi they are fine with power. I still don't think we have seen the best of Cabrera and he is what 21-22 yrs old.

Kinda hard to give up on a kid who basically came back from the abyss after his disasterous call-up last year. He is some moxie to him. Something this team has lacked the last couple of seasons.I'm not giving up on him but he hasn't shown that he hits nearly enough to start in a corner outfield spot. If they don't get Bobby Abreu this season or sign sheffield then they will go out in the FA market for a RF answer such as Carlos Lee.

Yanks need a bat a lot more than they need an arm.

I'm not giving up on him but he hasn't shown that he hits nearly enough to start in a corner outfield spot. If they don't get Bobby Abreu this season or sign sheffield then they will go out in the FA market for a RF answer such as Carlos Lee.


You dont need to have great production from every position when you have guys like Damon, Jeter, Cano, Giambi, Arod, Matsui and Posada all booked for next season and in the future. Cabrera can be more then valuable as soon as he learns to bunt better, develops alittle more power. He'll hit for a good average, steal a few bases and play solid defense.
We dont need a slugger at every position in this lineup that is for sure.

With all that money invested into the starting lineup and rotation, the Yanks bet on no injuries and bad bench players and it is catch up with them. You figure with all that money some could be spread around to get some insurance policies. Speaking from the Sox point of view it's great to have guys like Alex Cora, Wily Mo Pena, and Doug Mirabelli to come in and not miss a beat.

With all that money invested into the starting lineup and rotation, the Yanks bet on no injuries and bad bench players and it is catch up with them. You figure with all that money some could be spread around to get some insurance policies. Speaking from the Sox point of view it's great to have guys like Alex Cora, Wily Mo Pena, and Doug Mirabelli to come in and not miss a beat.
How does it feel that the yankees bascily lost 65 HR and 230 RBI's right in the middle of their lineup not to mention their all star 2B, had no depth to replace any of those players and have been playing AAA players for months yet your overrated team is only 1 game up.

How does it feel that the yankees bascily lost 65 HR and 230 RBI's right in the middle of their lineup not to mention their all star 2B, had no depth to replace any of those players and have been playing AAA players for months yet your overrated team is only 1 game up.

How are we overrated when we weren't picked to win the division? And don't complain to me about your management's poor roster decisions. Make a bed and lie in it.

How are we overrated when we weren't picked to win the division? And don't complain to me about your management's poor roster decisions. Make a bed and lie in it.
I'm not complaining about anything. The fact remains that boston couldn't seperate themselves from the yankees dispite us losing 65 homers and 220 RBI's and having no one to replace them with.

How are we overrated when we weren't picked to win the division? And don't complain to me about your management's poor roster decisions. Make a bed and lie in it.

LOL, yeah those Red Sox are certainly underdogs! Nobody expected much from them. Poor small market team.

LOL, yeah those Red Sox are certainly underdogs! Nobody expected much from them. Poor small market team.

Not what I said. You're misconstruing the words. We were expected to contend for the WC because this was the Yankees year. We are above and beyond expectations. Deal with it.

Not what I said. You're misconstruing the words. We were expected to contend for the WC because this was the Yankees year. We are above and beyond expectations. Deal with it.

Nobody pciked the Red Sox to win the division? Everyone had the Yankees down as the division winners?

Nobody pciked the Red Sox to win the division? Everyone had the Yankees down as the division winners?


On this board most Yankee fans laughed at Boston's off-season and picked them 3rd behind the Blue Jays......Search feature confirms that.

On this board most Yankee fans laughed at Boston's off-season and picked them 3rd behind the Blue Jays......Search feature confirms that.

It's still early yet. I picture the Red Sox reverting back to their old ways prior to the 2004 season and just fade like a Key West sunset.

It's still early yet. I picture the Red Sox reverting back to their old ways prior to the 2004 season and just fade like a Key West sunset.


True lot of games left. I have the Sox winning without much trouble especially with Wells throwing off mound again and will eat crow if wrong.

A Yanks -Sox close race is great Baseball if it pans out.

On this board most Yankee fans laughed at Boston's off-season and picked them 3rd behind the Blue Jays......Search feature confirms that.

Gotcha. Disney should make a movie about this Red Sox team. Hopefully they can pull this off because what they are doing is nothing short of magical.

;)

Gotcha. Disney should make a movie about this Red Sox team. Hopefully they can pull this off because what they are doing is nothing short of magical.

;)

LOL.

Did you pick them to win the division?
Did you pick them to finish ahead of the Jays?