AMERICAN LEAGUE
MVP - Derek Jeter
CYY - Johan Santana
ROY - Francisco Liriano
RRA - Joe Nathan
CPOY - Jim Thome
MGR - Leyland if Detriot wins the Central, Gardenhire if the Twins wins the Central

NATIONAL LEAGUE
MVP - Ryan Howard
CYY - Chris Carpenter
ROY - Hanley Ramirez
RRA - Billy Wagner
CPOY - Scott Rolen
MGR - Willie Randolph

Cannot really argue your selections, but I will. ;-)

I think AL ROY should goto Verlander. Unlike Liriano and Papelbon, he has made it the whole year.

Although they have slumped recently, I think Giradi deserves NL MOY. Is Randolph the reason the Mess are 18 games better (so far) at the same point as last year? Or is it that division which had all 5 teams above .500 last year has fallen off and four of the five teams has been under .500 for the better part of this season?

IMHO taken a team that gutted itself and was 20 games under .500 a month into the season and having them in contention for the wildcard is more deserving.

Cannot really argue your selections, but I will. ;-)

I think AL ROY should goto Verlander. Unlike Liriano and Papelbon, he has made it the whole year.

Although they have slumped recently, I think Giradi deserves NL MOY. Is Randolph the reason the Mess are 18 games better (so far) at the same point as last year? Or is it that division which had all 5 teams above .500 last year has fallen off and four of the five teams has been under .500 for the better part of this season?

IMHO taken a team that gutted itself and was 20 games under .500 a month into the season and having them in contention for the wildcard is more deserving.
florida and mets in same division,,
dont penalize someone for having a great team,, it takes talent to manage superstars..

I give Frank Thomas the comeback player of the year award, and AL rookie has to go to Verlander by default since he's been healthy all year

I agree except for throwing Frank Thomas in too. He dropped way below the radar for a few years and has made a huge comeback.

Cannot really argue your selections, but I will. ;-)

I think AL ROY should goto Verlander. Unlike Liriano and Papelbon, he has made it the whole year.

Although they have slumped recently, I think Giradi deserves NL MOY. Is Randolph the reason the Mess are 18 games better (so far) at the same point as last year? Or is it that division which had all 5 teams above .500 last year has fallen off and four of the five teams has been under .500 for the better part of this season?

IMHO taken a team that gutted itself and was 20 games under .500 a month into the season and having them in contention for the wildcard is more deserving.
My reasons for Liriano and Randolph ...

Verlander has been Good, VERY GOOD, but Liriano and Paplebon were dominant

Therefore I would vote for the dominant player over the durable player, because the dominant players played long enough to sustain their dominance over a prolonged period of time

Having said that, for me it came down to Liriano and Paplebon ... both equally as dominant ... but because the dominance is so equal, neither one more {or less} dominant than the other, I give the nod to the dominant SP

Lastly, had Paplebon remained healthy, THEN durability would have been the deciding factor for me ... the tiebreaker, if you will ... and Paplebon would have received my vote ... but because both players were shutdown, SP over RP became my tiebreaker

As for the NL MGR OF THE YEAR, too me its Gotta be Willie ... his team ran through the NL like a bull in a china closet ... they have a double-digit lead over the rest of the league ... REST OF THE LEAGUE ... so I can't reward mediocrity when there is one team that makes the rest of the NL {entire league!!} look like a pile of dog$hit ... in that case I have to vote for the MGR of the runaway locomotive

I would have done the same for Torre but the circumstances are different ... in the AL we have MGR's with much smaller payrolls, Leyland and Gardenhire, not only battling one another for the division title, but still battling the Yankees for the #1 Seed as well ... so the circumstances in the AL are much different, even taking the Yankees early injuries into account, thus its Leyland or Gardenhire {whoever wins the central?}

Torre will receive the ultimate lifetime achievement award when all is said and done, his amazing tenure of success with the Yankees will receive the ultimate recognition ... Cooperstown is beckoning

florida and mets in same division,,
dont penalize someone for having a great team,, it takes talent to manage superstars..


Great point. Since when did the Marlins leave the "awful" NL East? They should be held to the same standards.




As for the NL MGR OF THE YEAR, too me its Gotta be Willie ... his team ran through the NL like a bull in a china closet ... they have a double-digit lead over the rest of the league ... REST OF THE LEAGUE ... so I can't reward mediocrity when there is one team that makes the rest of the NL {entire league!!} look like a pile of dog$hit ... in that case I have to vote for the MGR of the runaway locomotive


BINGO. As I have said many times, Willie wins not necesarilly because he did an amazing job compared to other managers of the past, nor would his team have had such success without a lot of help from his highly paid team. He wins it by default because there are no other candidates in the NL that stand out besides Girardi, and HIS team will be finishing 3rd and possibly below .500. You can't "award" a guy like that as the best manager in his league when another manager's team, in his 2nd year, has led a team to the best record in baseball and is miles ahead of any other NL team, after not making the playoffs the previous 5 seasons.

BINGO. As I have said many times, Willie wins not necesarilly because he did an amazing job compared to other managers of the past, nor would his team have had such success without a lot of help from his highly paid team. He wins it by default because there are no other candidates in the NL that stand out besides Girardi, and HIS team will be finishing 3rd and possibly below .500. You can't "award" a guy like that as the best manager in his league when another manager's team, in his 2nd year, has led a team to the best record in baseball and is miles ahead of any other NL team, after not making the playoffs the previous 5 seasons.
I agree, and even if someone says the Mets didn't make the rest of the NL look like $hit, the rest of the NL "is dog$hit", the point remains the same ... then why reward the MGR of dog$hit over the MGR of the "one team" that consistantly stood above the mediocrity and established a dominant presense in the face of mediocrity?

Too me its Willie by a landslide, and I respect what Girardi has done with the team he inherited ... I have no doubt the Marlins performed at a much higher level than anyone had a right to expect, with so many neophytes ... he's one of the best young MGR's in the Game ... but the Mets stand alone on the NL as the only dominant team and you have to reward Willie Randolph for that, as opposed to rewarding mediocrity in the face of dominance

80 & GJH

Aside from SJ's valid point about managing egos, the Mess spent alot of money on payroll. We know that is not a gurantee to success, but they did manage to win 83 games last year and should win 93-97 this year. Given their additional spending on FAs this year and the below expectations seasons of the Braves and Phillies, Randolph's managing does not compare to Girardi's.

Girardi took over a team that returned one starter from the rotation and one everyday player. That one player, Cabrera, switched positions LF to 3B. Girardi a first year manager, inherited a team that slashed payroll to a league low 15 million with 4+ tied into one player (Willis) and managed to survive a disatourous 20 games under .500 start. The mess were supposed to be good. There was no expectations for the Marlins. Most thought they would lose then 100 games. Not be within 2 games of .500 and in contention for a wildcard this season after 150 games.

GJH those are fair points about Liriano. He was sick when pitching. Hopefully, his injury is not too bad.

80 & GJH

Aside from SJ's valid point about managing egos, the Mess spent alot of money on payroll. We know that is not a gurantee to success, but they did manage to win 83 games last year and should win 93-97 this year. Given their additional spending on FAs this year and the below expectations seasons of the Braves and Phillies, Randolph's managing does not compare to Girardi's.

Girardi took over a team that returned one starter from the rotation and one everyday player. That one player, Cabrera, switched positions LF to 3B. Girardi a first year manager, inherited a team that slashed payroll to a league low 15 million with 4+ tied into one player (Willis) and managed to survive a disatourous 20 games under .500 start. The mess were supposed to be good. There was no expectations for the Marlins. Most thought they would lose then 100 games. Not be within 2 games of .500 and in contention for a wildcard this season after 150 games.

GJH those are fair points about Liriano. He was sick when pitching. Hopefully, his injury is not too bad.


The Mets payroll barely changed. Piazza, Cameron, Benson, Looper all came off the books and were replaced by Delgado, Wagner and assorted role players.

I agree the team was expected to be good but that shouldn't be held against Willie and the team running away with the division despite a ton of injuries that they never complained about.

Girardi has done a fine job but when you look how Willie has juggled his entire rotation, replaced Matsui with Valentin at 2B and dealt with corner outfield injuries all season while only adding marginal players in Shawn Greene, Roberto Hernandez and Mota, he is the NL Manager of the year.

On Frank Thomas subject, I think he is not only the Comeback Player of the year but also a MVP candidate.

80 & GJH

Aside from SJ's valid point about managing egos, the Mess spent alot of money on payroll. We know that is not a gurantee to success, but they did manage to win 83 games last year and should win 93-97 this year. Given their additional spending on FAs this year and the below expectations seasons of the Braves and Phillies, Randolph's managing does not compare to Girardi's.

Girardi took over a team that returned one starter from the rotation and one everyday player. That one player, Cabrera, switched positions LF to 3B. Girardi a first year manager, inherited a team that slashed payroll to a league low 15 million with 4+ tied into one player (Willis) and managed to survive a disatourous 20 games under .500 start. The mess were supposed to be good. There was no expectations for the Marlins. Most thought they would lose then 100 games. Not be within 2 games of .500 and in contention for a wildcard this season after 150 games.

GJH those are fair points about Liriano. He was sick when pitching. Hopefully, his injury is not too bad.



You CANNOT argue in favor of Girardi at this point. If the Marlins won the wild card or at least came close, that would be one thing. But you can't tell me Girardi is the best manager in the league when his team is 3 games under .500, well out of the wild card race and struggling to stay in 3rd in a weak division, REGARDLESS of how bad the team looked at the start of the season. Willie cannot be BLAMED for having all the talent. In any other year, Willie would probably be beaten out by another NL manager whose team beat expectations.

But NO OTHER MANAGER stands out in the crowd. Girardi was the ONLY ONE and his team has come back to earth. San Diego, STL, Philly and LA were SUPPOSED to be contenders. The Reds under Chuck Narron fell completely out of the race. So that leaves Willie BY DEFAULT. The team obliterated any other NL team in its path. Not to mention, even with the division wrapped up in JUNE, the Mets continued to play hard and leave the rest of the NL in the dust. Can you really fault him for having talent to help him? Would Girardi have won 120 games with the team or something? Willie is in his SECOND SEASON, mind you, and as I said, the Mets haven't been contenders for a while. Minaya deserves the most credit for the '06 Mets, but because no other managers came even CLOSE to what Willie's team has accomplished, he will win the award for his work.

No mention of Morneau????

No mention of Morneau????

If he played anywhere but Minnesota he would probably be the favorite.

The media though is all over Jeter and Ortiz...have been for the past 3 months and they will probably end up 1-2 in the voting.

Thomas:If people jump on Ortiz because he is primarily a DH then the same standard should be held for Thomas. His number are unreal though for someone in his 17th season.

That is why alot of these awards mean nothing to me now. Once the media gets into it, it takes guys like Morneau and or Thomas out of the mix.

my AL MVP list:

1-Jeter
2-Dye
3-Ortiz
4-Santana
5-Morenau
6-Thomas
7-Mauer
8-Vladdy
9-Hafner
10-Damon (yes, not a typo)
11-Thome
12-Sizemore
13-Rivera (missing the last 2 and a half weeks or whatever has really killed his chances of being higher)
14-Nathan
15-Manny


my NL MVP list

1-Pujols
2-Howard
3-Cabrera
4-Reyes
5-Beltran
6-Soriano
7-Berkman
8-Carpenter
9-Wagner
10-Hanley

Look at the Twins season, and then look at Morneau's production. Right when they went on their tear, he heated up. A lot. Sure Liriano and Santana pitch well, but they provide the games for the runs to count. Justin Morneau has hands down been the most important guy on that team, and now that they are pushing for the playoffs, you have to say MVP.

I say the kid from the Twin Cities should get it.

Interesting article on the NL MVP race:

http://www.sportszillablog.com/2006/09/not_diggin_the_long_ball.htm

Look at the Twins season, and then look at Morneau's production. Right when they went on their tear, he heated up. A lot. Sure Liriano and Santana pitch well, but they provide the games for the runs to count. Justin Morneau has hands down been the most important guy on that team, and now that they are pushing for the playoffs, you have to say MVP.

I say the kid from the Twin Cities should get it.

I agree totally. Morneau would be my pick for mvp. Unfortunately you and I don't get a vote,so Jeter will probably take it,and that would really bother me if I weren't a Yankee fan.

Morneau: .325/.381/.576, 33 home runs, 125 RBI, 91 runs scored,

Dye: .320/.388/.635, 43 home runs, 118 RBI, 97 runs scored

Ortiz: .282/.403/.625, 50 home runs, 130 RBI, 108 runs scored


Don't see how Morneau is more valuable than Ortiz or Dye. Ortiz and Dye may have protection behind them (Manny and thome), they don't have the league's BA champion in the begining of his lineup

You CANNOT argue in favor of Girardi at this point. If the Marlins won the wild card or at least came close, that would be one thing. But you can't tell me Girardi is the best manager in the league when his team is 3 games under .500, well out of the wild card race and struggling to stay in 3rd in a weak division, REGARDLESS of how bad the team looked at the start of the season. Willie cannot be BLAMED for having all the talent. In any other year, Willie would probably be beaten out by another NL manager whose team beat expectations.

But NO OTHER MANAGER stands out in the crowd. Girardi was the ONLY ONE and his team has come back to earth. San Diego, STL, Philly and LA were SUPPOSED to be contenders. The Reds under Chuck Narron fell completely out of the race. So that leaves Willie BY DEFAULT. The team obliterated any other NL team in its path. Not to mention, even with the division wrapped up in JUNE, the Mets continued to play hard and leave the rest of the NL in the dust. Can you really fault him for having talent to help him? Would Girardi have won 120 games with the team or something? Willie is in his SECOND SEASON, mind you, and as I said, the Mets haven't been contenders for a while. Minaya deserves the most credit for the '06 Mets, but because no other managers came even CLOSE to what Willie's team has accomplished, he will win the award for his work.



Sorry but I disagree. This was a Marlins team that for all intensive purposes was supposed to lose 100 games this year. Girardi managed to take a team composed almost entirely of rookies and get them to within a few games of teh wildcard before fading out. It would be hard to see a team push for a wild card being as inexperienced as florida is in playing important games in September (kind of like what we're seeing a bit in Detroit), but look at it in the context of it and I think Girardi should be right there for MOY. Not to discredit Willie at all, I think he's done a great job this year. But the Mets were expected to win. The Fish weren't. They especially weren't expected to finish anywhere near where they're goin to.


As for AL MOY, I'll stick with Leyland. Same reason. You don't turn a team from a 90 game loser to a 90 game winner and not expect a handshake and a medal.

Sorry but I disagree. This was a Marlins team that for all intensive purposes was supposed to lose 100 games this year. Girardi managed to take a team composed almost entirely of rookies and get them to within a few games of teh wildcard before fading out. It would be hard to see a team push for a wild card being as inexperienced as florida is in playing important games in September (kind of like what we're seeing a bit in Detroit), but look at it in the context of it and I think Girardi should be right there for MOY. Not to discredit Willie at all, I think he's done a great job this year. But the Mets were expected to win. The Fish weren't. They especially weren't expected to finish anywhere near where they're goin to.


As for AL MOY, I'll stick with Leyland. Same reason. You don't turn a team from a 90 game loser to a 90 game winner and not expect a handshake and a medal.
intents and purposes, people

Morneau: .325/.381/.576, 33 home runs, 125 RBI, 91 runs scored,

Dye: .320/.388/.635, 43 home runs, 118 RBI, 97 runs scored

Ortiz: .282/.403/.625, 50 home runs, 130 RBI, 108 runs scored


Don't see how Morneau is more valuable than Ortiz or Dye. Ortiz and Dye may have protection behind them (Manny and thome), they don't have the league's BA champion in the begining of his lineup

So if you're just using numbers to decide, does Jeter get it?

The Mets payroll barely changed. Piazza, Cameron, Benson, Looper all came off the books and were replaced by Delgado, Wagner and assorted role players.

I agree the team was expected to be good but that shouldn't be held against Willie and the team running away with the division despite a ton of injuries that they never complained about.

Girardi has done a fine job but when you look how Willie has juggled his entire rotation, replaced Matsui with Valentin at 2B and dealt with corner outfield injuries all season while only adding marginal players in Shawn Greene, Roberto Hernandez and Mota, he is the NL Manager of the year.

On Frank Thomas subject, I think he is not only the Comeback Player of the year but also a MVP candidate.

Based on this statement, Torre is the AL MOY. Substitute Torre for Willie and you have your same argument for AL MOY.But he isn't because of your arguments posted earlier regarding Leyland/Gardenhire. So the same logic applies to Giradi. In fact, when adding in the payroll argument, Giradi wins in a landslide. Not even close.

Florida was expected to lose as much as 120 games in 2006. They have a shot at near-break-even. When you start 4 rookies in your rotation, and have more then half your everyday regulars with less then a full year of experience, and vastly exceed expectations, you are the MOY.

Willie did a very fine job. He also had injuries to contend with. But did he win more games then he was expected to? Maybe a few, and that's it. But Giradi may win 35+ more then he was expected to.

That, my good man, is the MOY in the NL.

AMERICAN LEAGUE
MVP - Derek Jeter
CYY - Johan Santana
ROY - Francisco Liriano
RRA - Joe Nathan
CPOY - Jim Thome
MGR - Leyland if Detriot wins the Central, Gardenhire if the Twins wins the Central

NATIONAL LEAGUE
MVP - Ryan Howard
CYY - Chris Carpenter
ROY - Hanley Ramirez
RRA - Billy Wagner
CPOY - Scott Rolen
MGR - Willie Randolph

Solid selection, all around. There is merit for all of them.

But I disagree with Willie for NL MOY, as stated in a post above.

I also disagree with Thome. He is a reasonable selection, but Thomas has come back from the dead, quite literally!! The last time Thomas made this kind of "noise" was about 4 years ago. That, is a decent comeback, IMO.

AL ROY is a fair choice, but how can a guy who was shut down twice in the span of 5 weeks get it? He didin't even start the season on the big club. Verlander has cooled off, but he survived the whole season. IMO, he gets it, sort of like "Survivor".

Off tpoic, how did that trade the Giants make a few years ago, AJ Perzinski for Nathan and Liarino, work out?? "Disaster" does not even come close to describing it.

Willie did a very fine job. He also had injuries to contend with. But did he win more games then he was expected to? Maybe a few, and that's it. But Giradi may win 35+ more then he was expected to.

That, my good man, is the MOY in the NL.
hahaha,, in the tick tick tick thread many didnt think that ;)

So if you're just using numbers to decide, does Jeter get it?

no, I still think Dye and Ortiz are better hitters than Morneau, and that Dye gets a defensive edge by being an outfielder and Ortiz's slugging prowess and ability to get on base outweighs Morneau's defense

but numbers are what keep people from over-estimating a players preformance from the hype from the media (like if someone were to say "Nolan Ryan threw 7 no hitters and is the strike out king, he must be the best pitcher of all time")


Ortiz and Dye had a better effect on their team, although the rest of their teams sucked and failed to hold up their end (unlike Johan Santana, Joe Nathan and Joe Mauer)

AMERICAN LEAGUE
MVP - Derek Jeter
CYY - Johan Santana
ROY - Francisco Liriano
RRA - Joe Nathan
CPOY - Jim Thome
MGR - Leyland if Detriot wins the Central, Gardenhire if the Twins wins the Central




Come on Ham - Regardless of the rough late August and September, there's no way, NONE, that Leyland doesn't deserve Manager of the year. It's in the bag and there's nothing that can be done about it. Leyland has taken a team with a previous record of 20, 18, 76. 51 & 30 less wins then losses over a 5 year period respecitvely and put them in the hunt for a division title and the best record in the AL.

No offense, Gardenhire did a great job of turning the season around. But he also turned it around to where it should have been the entire time. No one picked the Twinkies to suck and while it's commendable what Gardenhire did, finally getting them to perform to their abilities is what Managers get paid to do. You guys laughed me out of the park in March when I picked the Tigers to even compete for a WC. You all need to admit that there is no way that ANY of you ever thought the Tigers would be where they are now. Hell in June I was STILL hearing the Tigers are a fluke crap.

Leyland just gave the Tigers their first winning season since 1993, with nothing more then a 41 year old Kenny Rogers asn their 'big' offseason acquisition, using home grown talent in rookies Justin Verlander, Joel Zumaya & Curtis Granderson all long making perrenial underachievers under the old regime like Bonderman, Jamie Walker, Craig Monroe and Brandon Inge shine.

Sorry man, that award is Leylands and anything less would be pure robbery.

As for the Verlander vs Liriano/Papelbon debate, I don't agree with you either. Verlander is 16-9 with a 3.63 ERA over 29 Games started and unlike Liriano and Papelbon, he's still around on September 21st. If it was the Rookie of the quarter, first half or Rookie of the first 100 games award they might have an argument, but it's not, It's the Rookie of the Year and part of that award involves endurance down the stretch. Papelbon might be dominant in his role, yet's it's september and the guy who pitches one inning at a time a few games a week is nowhere to be found. Liriano was without a doubt a dominant force with a lower ERA but the fact is, he's home watching things on TV.

ROY Is Verlanders. Anything less is a crime.

But the Mets were expected to win. The Fish weren't. They especially weren't expected to finish anywhere near where they're goin to.




But the Marlins DID NOT win in the end. They are going to finish in 3rd with a losing record, and are pretty well out of the Wild Card race. Even if the Marlins were expected to lose over 100 games, losing 80-85 isn't a big enough jump to warrant Manager of the Year honors.

If the Marlins were in CONTENTION for a playoff spot, I would agree here. But they aren't. For all intents and purposes, the Fish are done and will finish with an unimpressive record. Girardi would be in my top 3 choices for NL MOY, but its not like he pulled off a miracle. He led the Marlins to what will end up around a 79-83 or 80-82 type of record, which will place them 17-20 games out in their division and about 5 out in the Wild Card. In the weak NL, that IS NOT that impressive despite having some "no-namers" on the squad.

Let me ask you this; would Girardi have done a significantly better job with the Mets, a team that absolutely DOMINATED their league and the same division?

But the Marlins DID NOT win in the end. They are going to finish in 3rd with a losing record, and are pretty well out of the Wild Card race. Even if the Marlins were expected to lose over 100 games, losing 80-85 isn't a big enough jump to warrant Manager of the Year honors.

If the Marlins were in CONTENTION for a playoff spot, I would agree here. But they aren't. For all intents and purposes, the Fish are done and will finish with an unimpressive record. Girardi would be in my top 3 choices for NL MOY, but its not like he pulled off a miracle. He led the Marlins to what will end up around a 79-83 or 80-82 type of record, which will place them 17-20 games out in their division and about 5 out in the Wild Card. In the weak NL, that IS NOT that impressive despite having some "no-namers" on the squad.

Let me ask you this; would Girardi have done a significantly better job with the Mets, a team that absolutely DOMINATED their league and the same division?

So 'dominating' the 'weak' NL with a team that was expected to do good is more of an accomplishment? :-s

The Mess were supposed to be good. They were supposed to win and be contenders for the title. Many 'media experts' predicted that they would contend/win the division title and some even selcted them for a WS appearance. I do not see where Randolph has done anything exceptional. Yes, he guided a good team and managing the egos is an accomplishment, but not at the level of what Girardi did.

He took over an 83 win team that returned 1 everyday starter who was playing a new position 1 starting pitcher and a team that slashed it's payroll from 60.4 million to 14.9 million. Six of their everyday starters had less then 162 games of combined experience prior to this season. Their rotation after Willis had less then 10 career starts.

This was not just going to be just a 100 loss team. This team had the makings of a 1960 Mets or 2003 Tigers. For the first 42 games, they played that part stumbling to an 11-31 record. After that horrendous start, the team could have tanked the whole season, but they did not. They did eventually break the .500 mark becoming the first team to accomplish the feat of being 20 games under .500 and eventually being above .500 in the same season. At 76-77 and 4 games out, they are still in contention for the WC and a .500 record.

Again, all Willie did was meet expectations. Girardi on the other hand, exceeded expectations by alot. Girardi's Marlins probably came close to doubling the expected win total.

The Mess .
http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nl/nymets/buckner.jpg

http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nl/nymets/buckner.jpg"Ouch" man that was a low blow SJ ,But I like how you think!!!

But the Marlins DID NOT win in the end. They are going to finish in 3rd with a losing record, and are pretty well out of the Wild Card race. Even if the Marlins were expected to lose over 100 games, losing 80-85 isn't a big enough jump to warrant Manager of the Year honors.

If the Marlins were in CONTENTION for a playoff spot, I would agree here. But they aren't. For all intents and purposes, the Fish are done and will finish with an unimpressive record. Girardi would be in my top 3 choices for NL MOY, but its not like he pulled off a miracle. He led the Marlins to what will end up around a 79-83 or 80-82 type of record, which will place them 17-20 games out in their division and about 5 out in the Wild Card. In the weak NL, that IS NOT that impressive despite having some "no-namers" on the squad.

Let me ask you this; would Girardi have done a significantly better job with the Mets, a team that absolutely DOMINATED their league and the same division?



All I'm saying is that I think it attests more to a manager that takes a team with considerable less talent and turn it into a respectable franchise in the span of one season. I'm not saying that his marlins team isn't talented, because it is, but it is talented through potential and not through experience. The Mets have a team full of experienced vets which were put on that team for one reason: to win. Regardless of the manager, that team would have at least been competitive. Now, it was Randolph who turned them into a great team. And kudos to him for it. But I just think that taking a team with zero experience in what was considered by some before the season to be turning into the worst season the Fish would ever have, and to finish 79-83 speaks volumes about who's running the team, in this case, Girardi.

Randolph may, and probably will, win the MOY and I wouldn't have a problem with it if he did. I just think Girardi warrants some serious thought.

It's hard to say what kind of job Girardi would do on the Mets, because I think each manager's particular coaching style is different from team to team. Joe Torre was for the most part a losing manager before coming into the Yankees. Lou Pinella managed a Mariners team that was compettive for years, but then came to Tampa Bay and floundered. I could probably give you some more examples but that would take too long. But what may work well on one team, might not work well for another. And maybe Randolph's coaching style for this particular Mets team is better suited than the coaching style of Girardi.

Based on this statement, Torre is the AL MOY. Substitute Torre for Willie and you have your same argument for AL MOY.But he isn't because of your arguments posted earlier regarding Leyland/Gardenhire. So the same logic applies to Giradi. In fact, when adding in the payroll argument, Giradi wins in a landslide. Not even close.

Florida was expected to lose as much as 120 games in 2006. They have a shot at near-break-even. When you start 4 rookies in your rotation, and have more then half your everyday regulars with less then a full year of experience, and vastly exceed expectations, you are the MOY.

Willie did a very fine job. He also had injuries to contend with. But did he win more games then he was expected to? Maybe a few, and that's it. But Giradi may win 35+ more then he was expected to.



That, my good man, is the MOY in the NL.


Nope. Torre being a manager of a roster 100mill above the remainder of the leagues payroll will never get my vote for MOY. That's just my opinion.

Listen Girardi and the Marlins is a nice story but at the end of the day they are a .500 team which means they were bad but just not as bad as was expected. We are to reward that?

My earlier vote for Leyland would not hold up now due to the Tiger collapse down the stretch.

Nope. Torre being a manager of a roster 100mill above the remainder of the leagues payroll will never get my vote for MOY. That's just my opinion.

Listen Girardi and the Marlins is a nice story but at the end of the day they are a .500 team which means they were bad but just not as bad as was expected. We are to reward that?

My earlier vote for Leyland would not hold up now due to the Tiger collapse down the stretch.

But didn't someone earlier post that being a successful manager of millionaires is also a difficult job?

Can't have it both ways. Every argument for Willie, gets the same for Torre. Every argument for Leyland gets the same for Giradi.

Put all "homerism" aside. Put all "fandom" aside. Leyland and Giradi are the correct choices.

But didn't someone earlier post that being a successful manager of millionaires is also a difficult job?

Can't have it both ways. Every argument for Willie, gets the same for Torre. Every argument for Leyland gets the same for Giradi.

Put all "homerism" aside. Put all "fandom" aside. Leyland and Giradi are the correct choices.


I never stated managing millionaires was a difficult job.

Not sure what the problem is with Mets being mentioned for awards. Willie has been great . It is what it is and we'll just have to see how the voting plays out.

I never stated managing millionaires was a difficult job.

Not sure what the problem is with Mets being mentioned for awards. Willie has been great . It is what it is and we'll just have to see how the voting plays out.


I did say "someone". I did not imply that you were the someone. But re-read the first page of this thread.

You are right though. We will just have to wait and see what happens. But if the voting is not close, either way, I would be quite surprised.

If Girardi is such a great manager, can someone explain this Sun-Sentinel article saying that there is a ZERO chance Girardi returns next season?




http://www.realgmbaseball.com/src_wiretap_archives/3699/20060922/source_girardi_wont_return_to_florida/


Marlins' Girardi not coming back, source says

By Mike Berardino
South Florida Sun-Sentinel
Posted September 22 2006


Joe Girardi, who guided the surprising Marlins into playoff contention dfespite baseball's lowest payroll, will soon be out as manager after just one season.

On a scale of 1 to 10, Girardi's chances of returning next year are "zero," according to a source who has spoken with the Marlins' front office.

"I don't think there is any chance," the source said.

With two years left on his contract, Girardi would be owed an estimated $1.5 million if no other club picks him up. The Cubs, expected to part ways with Dusty Baker, have been mentioned as a possible destination.

The Marlins are already compiling information about Girardi's successor, with a trio of third-base coaches likely to receive interviews: Fredi Gonzalez (Braves), Joey Cora (White Sox) and Manny Acta (Mets).

All three have Latin roots and speak fluent Spanish, which would be considered a significant upgrade from the current English-only staff. Gonzalez, who spent a decade with the Marlins as a minor league manager and major league coach, was the runner-up to Girardi after interviewing last fall.

Other possible candidates to replace Girardi include Triple-A Albuquerque manager Dean Treanor, Japanese League manager Trey Hillman, Braves special assistant Jim Fregosi, Cardinals third base coach Jose Oquendo, Mets bench coach Jerry Manuel and Marlins broadcaster Cookie Rojas, although Rojas is more likely to fill a coaching role.

The last straw for Girardi, 41, apparently was his ill-fated decision to bring back prized right-hander Josh Johnson after an 82-minute rain delay at Dolphin Stadium on Sept. 12.

"Not one of the smarter moves of the year," said the source, adding the Marlins' decision makers were "shocked" Johnson returned to the mound that night.

With the Marlins still clinging to wild-card hopes, Johnson tried to stay loose by playing catch with Dontrelle Willis in an indoor batting cage. That Johnson left four innings later with cramping in his forearm and was subsequently shut down for the year with a strained ligament did not help Girardi's case.

Sunday's 10th-inning meltdown in Atlanta was another strike against Girardi, who had never managed at any level before this season. Marlins management was disappointed Girardi inserted little-used center fielder Reggie Abercrombie as a defensive replacement instead of the more polished Eric Reed.

Two Abercrombie misplays opened the door for the Braves to rally from a four-run deficit to hand the Marlins a crushing 8-7 defeat that essentially ended their playoff chances.

Nor has it helped that Girardi's tense relations with Marlins management have not improved. The rookie manager and General Manager Larry Beinfest "barely speak" and have "no relationship at all," the source said.

Although Beinfest recently said Girardi and his staff deserved "a lot of credit" for the team's turnaround, he stopped short of an outright endorsement. Unlike most GMs, Beinfest is rarely seen in the manager's office anymore.

Marlins President David Samson appeared this week on ESPN and said the team would evaluate Girardi at the end of the season, but the source said that process already has been completed.

There also has been talk of frosty relations between Girardi and first base coach Perry Hill, a holdover from former manager Jack McKeon's staff and a longtime favorite of Marlins owner Jeffrey Loria. Hill left the Marlins this week for the fourth time this season because of a family medical problem.

At odds with Loria and the rest of the front office almost from the time he was hired last October, Girardi was nearly fired on Aug. 6 after a home loss to the Dodgers. That was the steamy afternoon when Girardi and bench coach Gary Tuck yelled at Loria to stop criticizing umpire Larry Vanover from his field-level seat, witnesses said.

According to reports, Girardi later apologized to Loria in front of the team, but the manager and owner have been unable to bridge the gulf between them.

"His introverted behavior and lack of people skills have caused most of the problems," the source said of Girardi, who spent one season as Yankees bench coach after a 15-year playing career. "Both sides are at fault."

Sources also told the Sun-Sentinel in the past month that Girardi and the front office have clashed over numerous personnel decisions, including where to play Miguel Cabrera, Dan Uggla and Josh Willingham and whether to use Johnson and Ricky Nolasco as starters or relievers.

Nonetheless, Girardi is widely considered a strong candidate for National League Manager of the Year after guiding a team with 22 rookies and a $15 million payroll into playoff contention. Not since Davey Johnson bolted the Orioles after 1997 has a newly named Manager of the Year failed to return the following year.

It's happened only one other time since the award was instituted 23 years ago. Bobby Cox, named the American League's top manager in 1985, left the Blue Jays to return to the Braves as general manager.

Loria is said to have a good relationship with Fregosi, 64, who hasn't managed since the Blue Jays fired him after the 2000 season.

Hillman, 43, has spent the past four seasons with the Hokkaido Nippon Ham Fighters, who were leading the Pacific League. He previously worked in the Yankees and Rangers organizations.

Lou Piniella, who left the Devil Rays a year ago, might prove too costly, especially with the Cubs and possibly the Phillies expected to pursue his services.

Mike Berardino can be reached at mberardino@sun-sentinel.com.

If Girardi is such a great manager, can someone explain this Sun-Sentinel article saying that there is a ZERO chance Girardi returns next season?

http://www.realgmbaseball.com/src_wiretap_archives/3699/20060922/source_girardi_wont_return_to_florida/


Marlins' Girardi not coming back, source says

By Mike Berardino
South Florida Sun-Sentinel
Posted September 22 2006


Joe Girardi, who guided the surprising Marlins into playoff contention dfespite baseball's lowest payroll, will soon be out as manager after just one season.

On a scale of 1 to 10, Girardi's chances of returning next year are "zero," according to a source who has spoken with the Marlins' front office.

"I don't think there is any chance," the source said.

With two years left on his contract, Girardi would be owed an estimated $1.5 million if no other club picks him up. The Cubs, expected to part ways with Dusty Baker, have been mentioned as a possible destination.

The Marlins are already compiling information about Girardi's successor, with a trio of third-base coaches likely to receive interviews: Fredi Gonzalez (Braves), Joey Cora (White Sox) and Manny Acta (Mets).

All three have Latin roots and speak fluent Spanish, which would be considered a significant upgrade from the current English-only staff. Gonzalez, who spent a decade with the Marlins as a minor league manager and major league coach, was the runner-up to Girardi after interviewing last fall.

Other possible candidates to replace Girardi include Triple-A Albuquerque manager Dean Treanor, Japanese League manager Trey Hillman, Braves special assistant Jim Fregosi, Cardinals third base coach Jose Oquendo, Mets bench coach Jerry Manuel and Marlins broadcaster Cookie Rojas, although Rojas is more likely to fill a coaching role.

The last straw for Girardi, 41, apparently was his ill-fated decision to bring back prized right-hander Josh Johnson after an 82-minute rain delay at Dolphin Stadium on Sept. 12.

"Not one of the smarter moves of the year," said the source, adding the Marlins' decision makers were "shocked" Johnson returned to the mound that night.

With the Marlins still clinging to wild-card hopes, Johnson tried to stay loose by playing catch with Dontrelle Willis in an indoor batting cage. That Johnson left four innings later with cramping in his forearm and was subsequently shut down for the year with a strained ligament did not help Girardi's case.

Sunday's 10th-inning meltdown in Atlanta was another strike against Girardi, who had never managed at any level before this season. Marlins management was disappointed Girardi inserted little-used center fielder Reggie Abercrombie as a defensive replacement instead of the more polished Eric Reed.

Two Abercrombie misplays opened the door for the Braves to rally from a four-run deficit to hand the Marlins a crushing 8-7 defeat that essentially ended their playoff chances.

Nor has it helped that Girardi's tense relations with Marlins management have not improved. The rookie manager and General Manager Larry Beinfest "barely speak" and have "no relationship at all," the source said.

Although Beinfest recently said Girardi and his staff deserved "a lot of credit" for the team's turnaround, he stopped short of an outright endorsement. Unlike most GMs, Beinfest is rarely seen in the manager's office anymore.

Marlins President David Samson appeared this week on ESPN and said the team would evaluate Girardi at the end of the season, but the source said that process already has been completed.

There also has been talk of frosty relations between Girardi and first base coach Perry Hill, a holdover from former manager Jack McKeon's staff and a longtime favorite of Marlins owner Jeffrey Loria. Hill left the Marlins this week for the fourth time this season because of a family medical problem.

At odds with Loria and the rest of the front office almost from the time he was hired last October, Girardi was nearly fired on Aug. 6 after a home loss to the Dodgers. That was the steamy afternoon when Girardi and bench coach Gary Tuck yelled at Loria to stop criticizing umpire Larry Vanover from his field-level seat, witnesses said.

According to reports, Girardi later apologized to Loria in front of the team, but the manager and owner have been unable to bridge the gulf between them.

"His introverted behavior and lack of people skills have caused most of the problems," the source said of Girardi, who spent one season as Yankees bench coach after a 15-year playing career. "Both sides are at fault."

Sources also told the Sun-Sentinel in the past month that Girardi and the front office have clashed over numerous personnel decisions, including where to play Miguel Cabrera, Dan Uggla and Josh Willingham and whether to use Johnson and Ricky Nolasco as starters or relievers.

Nonetheless, Girardi is widely considered a strong candidate for National League Manager of the Year after guiding a team with 22 rookies and a $15 million payroll into playoff contention. Not since Davey Johnson bolted the Orioles after 1997 has a newly named Manager of the Year failed to return the following year.

It's happened only one other time since the award was instituted 23 years ago. Bobby Cox, named the American League's top manager in 1985, left the Blue Jays to return to the Braves as general manager.

Loria is said to have a good relationship with Fregosi, 64, who hasn't managed since the Blue Jays fired him after the 2000 season.

Hillman, 43, has spent the past four seasons with the Hokkaido Nippon Ham Fighters, who were leading the Pacific League. He previously worked in the Yankees and Rangers organizations.

Lou Piniella, who left the Devil Rays a year ago, might prove too costly, especially with the Cubs and possibly the Phillies expected to pursue his services.

Mike Berardino can be reached at mberardino@sun-sentinel.com.




Loria is a prick. plain and simple. I lived down in south florida when the fish won in 03. He is no different than Huizenga. More concerned about making money than winning. Loria got pissed off because Girardi basically told him to shut it when he was constantly heckling an umpire during a game. It's not the first time a manager and an owner haven't seen eye to eye, and this has nothing to do with a his ability to manage a ballclub.

Loria is a prick. plain and simple. I lived down in south florida when the fish won in 03. He is no different than Huizenga. More concerned about making money than winning. Loria got pissed off because Girardi basically told him to shut it when he was constantly heckling an umpire during a game. It's not the first time a manager and an owner haven't seen eye to eye, and this has nothing to do with a his ability to manage a ballclub.


I don't care how much of a prick Loria is. If Girardi were to win Manager of the Year, exactly how would it be a good business decision to fire him?

Willie wins by default.

I don't care how much of a prick Loria is. If Girardi were to win Manager of the Year, exactly how would it be a good business decision to fire him?

Willie wins by default.



That is a question to ask Loria, not me.

If Girardi is gone, it will have absolutely nothing to do with how well he managed his team this year. It will be due to the fact that Lauria is an ego maniac and one of his employees told him to shut up with the whole world watching. One thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

I don't care how much of a prick Loria is. If Girardi were to win Manager of the Year, exactly how would it be a good business decision to fire him?

Willie wins by default.
Wow you are a HUGE homer. Girardi is 4 games out of a playoff spot with a 15 million dollar payroll. In the same division with the 130 Million dollar mets. He's CLEARLY the manager of the year in baseball not just the NL and Loria's stupidity dosn't change that.

Wow you are a HUGE homer. Girardi is 4 games out of a playoff spot with a 15 million dollar payroll. In the same division with the 130 Million dollar mets. He's CLEARLY the manager of the year in baseball not just the NL and Loria's stupidity dosn't change that.
$101,000,000*

$101,000,000*
It's $119.680,000 on hardball dollars but no matter what it is the marlins are spending AT LEAST 85 million less. Being in the playoff chase with a 15 million dollar payroll is amazing.

Shouldn't you not be posting here? The jets finished within 10 points of the pats.

It's $119.680,000 on hardball dollars but no matter what it is the marlins are spending AT LEAST 85 million less. Being in the playoff chase with a 15 million dollar payroll is amazing.

Shouldn't you not be posting here? The jets finished within 10 points of the pats.
ESPN.com says $100,901,XXX.

And you said you didn't care, and you're still wrong about the Jets D, and you're still an idiot troll.

ESPN.com says $100,901,XXX.

And you said you didn't care, and you're still wrong about the Jets D, and you're still an idiot troll.
I said i don't care weither you post or not which is true but you're still going back on what you said yet i'm the troll LOL.

Hardball Dollars is MUCH more accurate then ESPN. ESPN is from the start of the year BEFORE spring training. Typical bad information from you. Hardball Dollars takes into account what the teams ACCTUALLY pay not just adding up the players salary's.

I said i don't care weither you post or not which is true but you're still going back on what you said yet i'm the troll LOL.

Hardball Dollars is MUCH more accurate then ESPN. ESPN is from the start of the year BEFORE spring training. Typical bad information from you.
First of all, you know it was just something said while frustrated because of how bad the Jets were playing. If I meant it, I would have made a POST and made sure both parties agreed to it, just like I have done with sig bets in the past at TGG.

Second, I don't care what Hardball Dollars says, they're a no-name site and ESPN is the best known sports news service in the world, so I'd trust them first.

Third, I didn't know that players such as Shawn Green and Kelly Stinnett were on the Mets BEFORE spring training.

Fourth, please show me OTHER "bad" information that I have posted since it is oh-so typical.

Fifth, **** you.

I said i don't care weither you post or not which is true but you're still going back on what you said yet i'm the troll LOL.

Hardball Dollars is MUCH more accurate then ESPN. ESPN is from the start of the year BEFORE spring training. Typical bad information from you. Hardball Dollars takes into account what the teams ACCTUALLY pay not just adding up the players salary's.

If you are equating dollars to wins, and by stating the Marlins miraculous ability to stay within 14 games, while being 85 million of of payroll (your numbers), I can only assume at the truly remarkable ability you must see of the Mets of having nearly an equal record by being 65 million or so (again, you numbers) off of the Yankees payroll.

That is a fine compliment you are paying the Mets.

First of all, you know it was just something said while frustrated because of how bad the Jets were playing. If I meant it, I would have made a POST and made sure both parties agreed to it, just like I have done with sig bets in the past at TGG.

Second, I don't care what Hardball Dollars says, they're a no-name site and ESPN is the best known sports news service in the world, so I'd trust them first.

Third, I didn't know that players such as Shawn Green and Kelly Stinnett were on the Mets BEFORE spring training.

Fourth, please show me OTHER "bad" information that I have posted since it is oh-so typical.

Fifth, **** you.If you think Hardball Dollars is a no name website then you maybe you just don't know the difference between good information and bad...

If you think Hardball Dollars is a no name website then you maybe you just don't know the difference between good information and bad...
Yes, I'd say it is a no-name website considering it's layout that a 5 year old could have made. Great job arguing my other points, prick.

If you are equating dollars to wins, and by stating the Marlins miraculous ability to stay within 14 games, while being 85 million of of payroll (your numbers), I can only assume at the truly remarkable ability you must see of the Mets of having nearly an equal record by being 65 million or so (again, you numbers) off of the Yankees payroll.

That is a fine compliment you are paying the Mets.
When have i bashed the mets? The mets have done a great job this year (in an awful league) but a great job non the less and i've never said anything other then that however there is a BIG difference between a team with a 120 million dollar payroll trying to compete with a team with a 190 million dollar payroll then the marlins with BY FAR the smallest payroll in baseball being within 4 games of a playoff spot. I only mentioned the mets payroll in passing. this is about the MARLINS being in contention with a 15 million dollar payroll which is a great job by that orgnization and their manager who should win the manager of the year award.

Yes, I'd say it is a no-name website considering it's layout that a 5 year old could have made. Great job arguing my other points, prick.
Your other points are moronic and I don't feel like going back through months of threads to find the other crap you've been spewing.

When have i bashed the mets? The mets have done a great job this year (in an awful league) but a great job non the less and i've never said anything other then that however there is a BIG difference between a team with a 120 million dollar payroll trying to compete with a team with a 190 million dollar payroll then the marlins with BY FAR the smallest payroll in baseball being within 4 games of a playoff spot. I only mentioned the mets payroll in passing. this is about the MARLINS being in contention with a 15 million dollar payroll with is a great job by that orgnization and their manager who should win the manager of the year award.
Wait wait wait...

ESPN says Mets are 109
ESPN says Yanks are 198
HBD says Mets are 120
HBD says Yanks are 237

Where are you getting 190 from? Find another site that sways your favor?

Your other points are moronic and I don't feel like going back through months of threads to find the other crap you've been spewing.Because you'd probably find none.

When have i bashed the mets? The mets have done a great job this year (in an awful league) but a great job non the less and i've never said anything other then that however there is a BIG difference between a team with a 120 million dollar payroll trying to compete with a team with a 190 million dollar payroll then the marlins with BY FAR the smallest payroll in baseball being within 4 games of a playoff spot. I only mentioned the mets payroll in passing. this is about the MARLINS being in contention with a 15 million dollar payroll which is a great job by that orgnization and their manager who should win the manager of the year award.

You say that in teh same paragraph as saying "awful league"

if you truly believe it to be an "awful league", where is the accomplishment of finsihing with in 4 games of a mediocre wild card.

You are talking both sided of teh mouth.

Yankees AAV total 191.
Mets AAV 111.
Same difference.

This is completely meaningless anyway because the Mets don't complete with the yankees for a playoff spot.

You say that in teh same paragraph as saying "awful league"

if you truly believe it to be an "awful league", where is the accomplishment of finsihing with in 4 games of a mediocre wild card.

You are talking both sided of teh mouth.
Well some manager in the NL has to win the manager of the year award... And i'll take the guy with the 15 million dollar payroll team thats in playoff contention vs the guy with a 111 million dollar payroll. there is a reason that torre never wins manager of the year and i have no problem with that either.

Yankees AAV total 191.
Mets AAV 111.
Same difference.

This is completely meaningless anyway because the Mets don't complete with the yankees for a playoff spot.
You're just an idiot who quotes wrong numbers because you're an idiot.

First, HBD is way more accurate than ESPN because HBD says the Mets with Benefits and Tax is 119+, while ESPN is jusy saying 109+ for basic payroll.

But then, you go to take the Yankees payroll from HBD and quote the AAV (not the Benfits and Tax) in an attempt to cover the fact that a team with nearly double the payroll (with Benefits and Tax, and a good 80% of AAV) has just as many wins.

If ESPN is SO inaccurate and wrong, how come they are just $2M+ different from HBD AAV?

It's more of YOUR typical bull****-spewing. You talk about ME spreading lies with bad information, in fact, you say MONTHS of it.

I think you have confused ME with YOU.

You're an idiot, a hypocrite, and a homer. Good job, you embarass the Yankees fans and this entire site with your idiocy.

Well some manager in the NL has to win the manager of the year award... And i'll take the guy with the 15 million dollar payroll team thats in playoff contention vs the guy with a 111 million dollar payroll. there is a reason that torre never wins manager of the year and i have no problem with that either.

All I am sayin is if you are going to say the league is "awful", in an attempt to diminish the Mets' accomplishments, please don't tell us how the mighty Marlins were miraculous in coming within 4 games of a diluted wild card.

Your points don't match.

You're just an idiot who quotes wrong numbers because you're an idiot.

First, HBD is way more accurate than ESPN because HBD says the Mets with Benefits and Tax is 119+, while ESPN is jusy saying 109+ for basic payroll.

But then, you go to take the Yankees payroll from HBD and quote the AAV (not the Benfits and Tax) in an attempt to cover the fact that a team with nearly double the payroll (with Benefits and Tax, and a good 80% of AAV) has just as many wins.

If ESPN is SO inaccurate and wrong, how come they are just $2M+ different from HBD AAV?

It's more of YOUR typical bull****-spewing. You talk about ME spreading lies with bad information, in fact, you say MONTHS of it.

I think you have confused ME with YOU.

You're an idiot, a hypocrite, and a homer. Good job, you embarass the Yankees fans and this entire site with your idiocy.

YOU MADE THIS YANKEES vs METS. WHO CARES if the mets are at 119, 130 or 111 the point i'm trying to make is about the MARLINS not the yankees or the mets. I love how you mets fans are so obcessed with the yankees that you have to bring them up in every argument about anything. I didn't look up the mets payroll exactly becuase i could care less what it is. I just know it's ALOT more then the marlins.

All I am sayin is if you are going to say the league is "awful", in an attempt to diminish the Mets' accomplishments, please don't tell us how the mighty Marlins were miraculous in coming within 4 games of a diluted wild card.

Your points don't match.
When did i say they were so mighty? Are you so much of a homer that you can't aknowlage how great a job girardi has done this year? EVERYONE picked the marlins to lose 110 games this year for christ sakes.

YOU MADE THIS YANKEES vs METS. WHO CARES if the mets are at 119, 130 or 111 the point i'm trying to make is about the MARLINS not the yankees or the mets. I love how you mets fans are so obcessed with the yankees that you have to bring them up in every argument about anything. I didn't look up the mets payroll exactly becuase i could care less what it is. I just know it's ALOT more then the marlins.
I didn't make it Yankees vs Mets, Dierking did, but you went ahead and spewed even more incorrect facts and numbers, just like you typically. I do agree that Girardi should probably be GM of the year, but at the same time, if I see a fool like you spewing lies, I'm not going to just sit there and watch it. And, I didn't bring up the Yankees first, did I? You should really go talk to nyjunc at TGG, because you're both a bunch of ****ing idiots who are obsessed with the Mets fans who apparantly obsess over the Yankees, despite the fact that almost all fans outside of your typical fan who doesn't watch every game couldn't give two ****ing ****s about the Yankees except when we play them. But as idiots like you and nyjunc continue to be idiotic pretentious asses, the more I begin to hate the entire Yankee fan base. **** you, you're a disgrace to baseball fans, Yankee fans, and more importantly, Jets fans.

When did i say they were so mighty? Are you so much of a homer that you can't aknowlage how great a job girardi has done this year? EVERYONE picked the marlins to lose 110 games this year for christ sakes.
You have to remember the babseball axiom of even bad teams will win 1 of 3 guaranteed,,
so the question is what the Marlins and Mets did with the remaining 66%,,
you have to give an automatic 54 wins to both, ,and go from there

I didn't make it Yankees vs Mets, Dierking did, but you went ahead and spewed even more incorrect facts and numbers, just like you typically. I do agree that Girardi should probably be GM of the year, but at the same time, if I see a fool like you spewing lies, I'm not going to just sit there and watch it. And, I didn't bring up the Yankees first, did I? You should really go talk to nyjunc at TGG, because you're both a bunch of ****ing idiots who are obsessed with the Mets fans who apparantly obsess over the Yankees, despite the fact that almost all fans outside of your typical fan who doesn't watch every game couldn't give two ****ing ****s about the Yankees except when we play them. But as idiots like you and nyjunc continue to be idiotic pretentious asses, the more I begin to hate the entire Yankee fan base. **** you, you're a disgrace to baseball fans, Yankee fans, and more importantly, Jets fans.
Girardi for GM of the year. Ok teriffic. All you want to do is fling around personal insults so i'm not gonna waste any more time with you. Good luck with that GM of the year vote though pal.

You have to remember the babseball axiom of even bad teams will win 1 of 3 guaranteed,,
so the question is what the Marlins and Mets did with the remaining 66%,,
you have to give an automatic 54 wins to both, ,and go from thereHaving a team that EVERYONE thought would lose 110 games within 4 games of a playoff spot in a HORRIBLE market and with NO payroll is more impressive then running away with a bad division in a bad league...

Girardi for GM of the year. Ok teriffic. All you want to do is fling around personal insults so i'm not gonna waste any more time with you. Good luck with that GM of the year vote though pal.
Yeah, that's all I want to do. YOU started it by telling me I spread bad information because of sources that are not credible. You are a hypocrite, and so wrong in this thread that you are embarassed.

When did i say they were so mighty? Are you so much of a homer that you can't aknowlage how great a job girardi has done this year? EVERYONE picked the marlins to lose 110 games this year for christ sakes.

Girardi could have actually done better, if he did not make some bad early decisions. He didn't want Sanchez or Johnson to be parts of his rotation.

Johnson pushed his way on, and I can understand the Sanchez to a degree.

If he would have been less stubborn, as Luria wanted, he may be in the postseason right now. Girardi may actually be a reason why the marlins didn't make the post season.

If you want to call me a "homer" fine. But you still did not adress why Girardi has done such a great job hovering at .500 in what you call an "awful" league.

Where is the accomplishment of being .500 in an awful league?

Yeah, that's all I want to do. YOU started it by telling me I spread bad information because of sources that are not credible. You are a hypocrite, and so wrong in this thread that you are embarassed.So i said that Girardi should be the manger of the year then you counter by saying that you agree with me that he should be GM of the year and I'M the one who should be embarrised? You're the idiot who created an entire argument about NOTHING just for the sake of being an argumentitive ass. You don't even know what award you're arguing about LMAO.

So i said that Girardi should be the manger of the year then you counter by saying that you agree with me that he should be GM of the year and I'M the one who should be embarrised? You're the idiot who created an entire argument about NOTHING just for the sake of being an argumentitive ass. You don't even know what award you're arguing about LMAO.It's called a typo, you idiot. You know full well what I meant. Again, YOU still haven't stood up for yourself where I pointed out your complete hypocrisy and skewing of facts.

Girardi could have actually done better, if he did not make some bad early decisions. He didn't want Sanchez or Johnson to be parts of his rotation.

Johnson pushed his way on, and I can understand the Sanchez to a degree.

If he would have been less stubborn, as Luria wanted, he may be in the postseason right now. Girardi may actually be a reason why the marlins didn't make the post season. Johnson was on the rotation VERY early in the season after having a great month in the minors.

If you want to call me a "homer" fine. But you still did not adress why Girardi has done such a great job hovering at .500 in what you call an "awful" league.

Where is the accomplishment of being .500 in an awful league?

I think their being late to go to Sanchez had to do with his mediocore minor league numbers. Not many people could've predicted how well he'd pitch in the majors.

The acomplishment is taking a team that was supposed to lose 110 games and losing around 30 games less then expected. thats pretty impressive in my book...

It's called a typo, you idiot. You know full well what I meant. Again, YOU still haven't stood up for yourself where I pointed out your complete hypocrisy and skewing of facts.
I said 120 you said 101 neither of us had the 100% right numbers and because I wasn't here to argue about the mets payroll a ballpark figure was fine. My point was that the MARLINS have a MUCH LOWER payroll then the mets and thats true no matter what number is right.

I think their being late to go to Sanchez had to do with his mediocore minor league numbers. Not many people could've predicted how well he'd pitch in the majors.

The acomplishment is taking a team that was supposed to lose 110 games and losing around 30 games less then expected. thats pretty impressive in my book...

"Supposed to" is thrown out when game 1 starts. That is for prognosticators, and those, as we know are horrible.

YOU want to say the NL is "awful" Fine, I can live with that.

But, If you are then going to try and trumpet the accomplishments of a .500 team in an "awful" league, well I have to call you on that. It makes no sense.

The Marlins are closer in record to the team with the worst record in an awful league, than teh team with the best record in an awful league.

In my book, that is hardly reward worthy. And I am not necessarily pushing Willie either.

I said 120 you said 101 neither of us had the 100% right numbers and because I wasn't here to argue about the mets payroll a ballpark figure was fine. My point was that the MARLINS have a MUCH LOWER payroll then the mets and thats true no matter what number is right.
silly to get into th epayroll argument,,
u can have great young players who havent reaped the big payday yet (like reyes and wright before recently),, but when they are up for new contracts if the Marlins want to keep them they will have a huge payroll,,
so best way to look at what a manager did is to actually rate t hepitchers and positio nguys to see what he actually has to work with. Those young Marlins will be makin alot of money soon, somewhere, but they are still very talented and capable of alot of wins, regardless of manager

"Supposed to" is thrown out when game 1 starts. That is for prognosticators, and those, as we know are horrible.

YOU want to say the NL is "awful" Fine, I can live with that.

But, If you are then going to try and trumpet the accomplishments of a .500 team in an "awful" league, well I have to call you on that. It makes no sense.

The Marlins are closer in record to the team with the worst record in an awful league, than teh team with the best record in an awful league.

In my book, that is hardly reward worthy. And I am not necessarily pushing Willie either.
You can make the arguement that expectations don't mean anything and thats fine but a manager taking a team with a 15 million dollar payroll and basicly ALL rookies and playing 500 ball with them and being 4 out of the playoffs in late september in the same division as the mets is a great job any way you spin it.

silly to get into th epayroll argument,,
u can have great young players who havent reaped the big payday yet (like reyes and wright before recently),, but when they are up for new contracts if the Marlins want to keep them they will have a huge payroll,,
so best way to look at what a manager did is to actually rate t hepitchers and positio nguys to see what he actually has to work with. Those young Marlins will be makin alot of money soon, somewhere, but they are still very talented and capable of alot of wins, regardless of manager
The marlins will be great in 3 years but teams that young hardly EVER play as competitive ball as they have. They are at the same stage as the tigers were 4 years ago when they lost 118 games.

The marlins will be great in 3 years but teams that young hardly EVER play as competitive ball as they have. They are at the same stage as the tigers were 4 years ago when they lost 118 games.
OK,, serious question? What team do you root for?

OK,, serious question? What team do you root for?

The yanks.

The yanks.
i understand now..
http://www.sallyminker.com/art/2-d/images/grapes-print.jpg

i understand now..
http://www.sallyminker.com/art/2-d/images/grapes-print.jpg
This is NOT a mets bash. I honestly don't hate the mets or even root against them i just feel that girardi is the manager of the year.

Why would a yankee fan be sour grapes about the mets?

This is NOT a mets bash. I honestly don't hate the mets or even root against them i just feel that girardi is the manager of the year.
who did a better job this year? Willie or Torre?

who did a better job this year? Willie or Torre?
Ehh I'd say they are about even. Torre did a great job holding the team together through the injuries but he's also HORRIBLE at managing the bullpen. Willie did a good job but he really had no competition in the division. Neither of them should win manager of the year.

Ehh I'd say they are about even. Torre did a great job holding the team together through the injuries but he's also HORRIBLE at managing the bullpen. Willie did a good job but he really had no competition in the division. Neither of them should win manager of the year.
;)
cant bring yourself to say it can ya

;)
cant bring yourself to say it can yaI gave you my honest opinion dude. They both have things working for and against them.

I do doubt that the mets would be so far in first if they had had the level of injuries the yankees had this year...

:yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:

game set match

met hater

:yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:

game set match

met haterhow does that prove i'm a met hater? did the mets lose 2 all star OF's for 4+ months each and an all star 2b for almost 2 months?

how does that prove i'm a met hater? did the mets lose 2 all star OF's for 4+ months each and an all star 2b for almost 2 months?
:yahoo: :yahoo:
so freakin obvious its hilarious...

:yahoo: :yahoo:
so freakin obvious its hilarious...

dude if i was a met hater i'd tell you. how does me saying that torre deserves credit for getting the yankees through their injurys prove i'm a met hater?

dude if i was a met hater i'd tell you. how does me saying that torre deserves credit for getting the yankees through their injurys prove i'm a met hater?
i am bored,, goin home,
my job of unmasking a yankee troll crappin on willie is accomplished ;)

i am bored,, goin home,
my job of unmasking a yankee troll crappin on willie is accomplished ;)
so me saying that he did about as good a job as torre did this year is crapping on him? i know i'm not a met hater but i garuntee you're a yankee hater who would never give the yankees any credit for anything.

Let me ask you a question. You don't think that if the mets had lost Wright and Delgado for 4 months each and Reyes for almost 2 months that they might have a different record? because thats what the yankees lost in matsui sheffield and cano. Torre don't deserve credit for holding the team together after that?

Let me ask you a question. You don't think that if the mets had lost Wright and Delgado for 4 months each and Reyes for almost 2 months that they might have a different record? because thats what the yankees lost in matsui sheffield and cano. Torre don't deserve credit for holding the team together after that?

You equate teh Yankees losing outfielders the same as the Mets losing infielders.

What kind of foolhardy equation is that? Everyone knows you can replace outfielders much more easily than infielders. Terrible comparison

You equate teh Yankees losing outfielders the same as the Mets losing infielders.

What kind of foolhardy equation is that? Everyone knows you can replace outfielders much more easily than infielders. Terrible comparison
Forget what posision they play. I'm talking about OFFENSIVE production in the lineup as a whole.It dosn't matter why posision it is. If you take 2 100 RBI 30 HR hitters out of a lineup for 4 months and another 340 17 90 guy out for 2 months thats VERY hard to overcome.

Forget what posision they play. I'm talking about OFFENSIVE production in the lineup as a whole.

The Mets lost Floyd at Left Field and had to trade away their starting Right fielder.

Are you trying to play the hypothetical game? That's a tough one to play.

If you are going to take the silly route of trying to make me feel sorry for a 200 million payroll that suffers from injuries, I will laugh directly at your face.

Please don't go down that route.

The Mets lost Floyd at Right Field and had to trade away their starting Right fielder.

Are you trying to play the hypothetical game? That's a tough one to play.

If you are going to take the silly route of trying to make me feel sorry for a 200 million payroll that suffers from injuries, I will laugh directly at your face.

Please don't go down that route.First of all neither Floyd or Nady is as good as Matsui or Sheffield. Second of all no matter WHAT the payroll is losing players of that caliber is a huge blow to any team. The yankees obviously don't need sympathy but that dosn't mean that torre dosn't deserve credit for holding the team together behind the scenes.

First of all neither Floyd or Nady is as good as Matsui or Sheffield. Second of all no matter WHAT the payroll is losing players of that caliber is a huge blow to any team. The yankees obviously don't need sympathy but that dosn't mean that torre dosn't deserve credit for holding the team together behind the scenes.

Your other Yankee brethren would argue that the Yankees are a BETTER TEAM without those players. I would agree.

Exactly what point are you trying to make?

Your other Yankee brethren would argue that the Yankees are a BETTER TEAM without those players. I would agree.

Exactly what point are you trying to make?
I don't know if i'd say that without Matsui Sheffield and Cano and before the Abreu trade the yankees were better then the mets... I'm trying to defend the fact that Willie and Torre both have pluses and minuses this year and i feel they have done about an equal managing job.

First of all neither Floyd or Nady is as good as Matsui or Sheffield. Second of all no matter WHAT the payroll is losing players of that caliber is a huge blow to any team. The yankees obviously don't need sympathy but that dosn't mean that torre dosn't deserve credit for holding the team together behind the scenes.

In this case, shouldn't you be voting Grady Little as NL MOY as look at all the players that he lost and all the rookies he is starting.

In this case, shouldn't you be voting Grady Little as NL MOY as look at all the players that he lost and all the rookies he is starting.I think little should get votes but i would still vote for girardi. Also i DON'T think that torre is the AL manager of the year.

I don't know if i'd say that without Matsui Sheffield and Cano and before the Abreu trade the yankees were better then the mets... I'm trying to defend the fact that Willie and Torre both have pluses and minuses this year and i feel they have done about an equal managing job.

I meant that the Yanks were a better OVERALL TEAM without those players. Not in comparison with the Mets. that remains to be seen.

Torre has done a great job this year, one of his best

I meant that the Yanks were a better OVERALL TEAM without those players. Not in comparison with the Mets. that remains to be seen.

Torre has done a great job this year, one of his bestAs i said before torre does a great job behind the scenes but a terrible job managing the bullpen which has cost the yankees games this year.