YANKS, BOSOX GUN FOR BUC
By GEORGE KING


LOOKING FOR RELIEF: The Yankees hope to acquire the Pirates' Mike Gonzalez to fill the role of lefty set-up man, but the Red Sox are also in pursuit of the pitcher.December 12, 2006 -- Is there anything the Red Sox and Yankees won't fight over? Now it's Pirates lefty reliever Mike Gonzalez.

While the Red Sox are engaged in the high stakes Daisuke Matsuzaka negotiations that have to be completed by midnight Thursday, they are trying to upgrade a bullpen that needs a closer since Jonathan Papelbon is being viewed as a starter.

The Yankees, who have tried countless ways to get a dependable arm in front of Mariano Rivera since Jeff Nelson's and Mike Stanton's first tour of The Bronx, believe Gonzalez could be the guy.

The Pirates are looking for an inexpensive big bat in return for Gonzalez, who was 24-for-24 in save chances last year until tendinitis ended his season Aug. 24. He is believed to be completely healthy.

Ideally, the Pirates would like Atlanta first baseman Adam La Roche, but the Braves have Bob Wickman to close and would likely spin Gonzalez. Enter the Yankees and Red Sox.

The Braves, who have Scott Thorman to replace La Roche, were very interested in Scott Proctor at last summer's trade deadline and haven't changed their opinion. However, since they would be giving up a 32-homer, 90 RBI bat it's likely they would want more than Proctor. Like everyone, they are high on Melky Cabrera but would the Yankees trade Proctor and Cabrera for a 28-year-old reliever who has never pitched a meaningful game after May and has spent his entire four-year career in the NL?

The Red Sox, who acquired Gonzalez from the Pirates on July 22, 2003 and dealt him back nine days later, have dangled outfielder Coco Crisp, but it is probably going to take more than that.

As for Gonzalez, an NL talent evaluator said, "He is probably what Mike Stanton and Alan Embree used to be. He is a power guy, throws 91 to 92 mph. He is a top-shelf guy."

In 54 innings this past year Gonzalez gave up 42 hits, fanned 64 and walked 31. Lefties hit .163 (7-for-43) against him, while righties batted .227 (35-for-154). He is arbitration eligible after making $347,000 last year and the Pirates believe their closer can come from a cast of young arms.

*

The Yankees aren't announcing it but Cuban defector Juan Miranda told ESPNdeportes.com he signed a four-year deal worth $2 million with the Yankees. Miranda, a left-handed hitting first baseman, will be on the 40-man roster. Providing his visa problems that have resulted in him not playing since defecting in 2004 are cleared, Miranda will be in the mix at first base with Andy Phillips and Josh Phelps. He has minor league options. Yankees have also talked to free agents Shea Hillenbrand and Doug Mientkiewicz.

"In Cuba I grew up dreaming of playing in the big leagues but I never thought it would be possible, much less the Yankees," the 23-year-old said.

Miranda was a member of the Cuban national team from 2001 until defecting in 2004 to the Dominican Republic where he gained citizenship last year. According to the report Miranda passed a Yankee physical last week.

Andy Pettitte is expected to take a physical Monday or Tuesday of next week. If he passes the Yankees will announce his signing.

Yankees officially announced Don Mattingly will be Joe Torre's bench coach and Kevin Long will replace Mattingly as the hitting coach. Long was the Triple-A hitting coach last season at Columbus.

During the season I suggested Proctor and Phillips (with Villone if PItt would take him) but as much as I'd like the guy in pinstripes, I think Melky and Proctor is too much. JMO.

I said it before i'll say it again. The yankees don't need Mike Gonzalez. I'm perfectly happy with the pen the way it is now.

I said it before i'll say it again. The yankees don't need Mike Gonzalez. I'm perfectly happy with the pen the way it is now.


Well if the report is accurate, then Brian Cashman is not happy with it and he sees Gonzalez as an upgrade. I agree with Cashman on this one.

I saw the future, it will be a three team 7 player deal.

Yankees give up Proctor, Cabrera
Braves give up LaRoche and Davies
Pirates give up Gonzalez, Castillo, and Cota

Yankees get Gonzalez, Davies, Cota
Braves get Castillo, Cabrera, and Proctor
Pirates get LaRoche... and Phil Hughes

:confused:

Trading Melky is a mistake. Melky will be the 4th OF this year (which is a shame, I like him in LF), and when Abreu's contract is up, I think he'll take over in RF. He plays hard. Definitely the kind of player the Yankees need.

Well if the report is accurate, then Brian Cashman is not happy with it and he sees Gonzalez as an upgrade. I agree with Cashman on this one.
I doubt the rumor is true. George King is great at making up BS rumors.

I saw the future, it will be a three team 7 player deal.

Yankees give up Proctor, Cabrera
Braves give up LaRoche and Davies
Pirates give up Gonzalez, Castillo, and Cota

Yankees get Gonzalez, Davies, Cota
Braves get Castillo, Cabrera, and Proctor
Pirates get LaRoche... and Phil Hughes

:confused:

I'm gonna guess no on that one....wouldn't be a bad deal for your buccos though.

Then I would like Gonzo, Cota, and McLouth or Nady to the yankees for Proctor and Cabrera. Then Castillo and Proctor to Atlanta for LaRoche. Damn I wish Dave Littlefield was genius enough to pull that off.

C-Paulino
1B-LaRoche
2B-Sanchez
SS-Wilson
3B-Bautista
LF-Bay
CF-Duffy
RF-Cabrera

We might be able to win some games with that group.

Melky = JAG.

It's amazing the way some of you over-rate your prospects.

Does he have a good arm? I'm sure someone's said whether or not before, but I never paid much attention cause of his gay name.

Melky = JAG.

It's amazing the way some of you over-rate your prospects.



In Cabreras case....here's what I see when I watch the kid play

-Swith hitter

-Plus arm

-Plus speed

-line drive hitter who's power numbers will increase as most young line drive hitters do

-Off the charts plate discipline for a young hitter (56 BB and 59 Ks this season as a rookie)

So it's not unreasonable to say the guy could be a 20HR/20+ SB threat who is well above average defensively and can work deep in to the count and beat a team several different ways.

IMO, giving up a player like that IN ADDITION to Scott Proctor is too much.

The Yankees don't have many players who bring this much to the table for league minimum. If Cashman really does want to stop the reckless spending, Melky is a player you keep.

Does he have a good arm? I'm sure someone's said whether or not before, but I never paid much attention cause of his gay name.

He has a well above average arm. Not elite but IMO only Ichiro and Vlad are "elite".

He was among the league leaders in OF assists this season and that was no fluke. Very good arm.

I doubt the rumor is true. George King is great at making up BS rumors.

I'm sure you're right. I have no idea why the Yankees would want anything to do with a young power lefty when they can just make a push to bring Ron Villone back in to the fold.

Melky = JAG.

It's amazing the way some of you over-rate your prospects.
You are entitled to youropinion. See me in a few years, when you are begging us to take Zambrano and Pie just for Melky. ;)

I'm sure you're right. I have no idea why the Yankees would want anything to do with a young power lefty when they can just make a push to bring Ron Villone back in to the fold.
Did i say i wanted villone back? nope. the yankee bullpen is fine without either of them.

Melky = JAG.

It's amazing the way some of you over-rate your prospects.I don't think mekly is gonna be a great major leaguer but right now he has created some value for himself.

Did i say i wanted villone back? nope. the yankee bullpen is fine without either of them.

So you think the Yankees would be wise to go in to the season with Mike Myers as the only lefty in the 'pen? Thanks, that's about all I needed to hear.

So you think the Yankees would be wise to go in to the season with Mike Myers as the only lefty in the 'pen? Thanks, that's about all I needed to hear.
Having a lefty in the pen couldn't be more overrated. The yankees have good depth in their bullpen right now and more on the way in the minors. Trading away valuable trade chips that could be used to get a 1B (the yankees real need) for a set up man just because he's a lefty makes zero sense. If the yankees have their hearts set on getting another lefty for the pen they should sign Scott Schoeneweis.

If the yankees have their hearts set on getting another lefty for the pen they should sign Scott Schoeneweis.:character42:

I'm trying to understand this obsession you have with 30-something scrub lefties coming out of the bullpen. I'm not sure how long you've been a baseball fan or when you started "rooting" for the Yankees but for each of their last four rings, they didn't win any of em with one lefty in the pen who was good for getting one out every three or four days.

The reason to have a lefty in the pen is to get leftys out right? Well lefties hit 227 off of Schoeneweis and you don't have to give up any players to get him.

:character42:

I'm trying to understand this obsession you have with 30-something scrub lefties coming out of the bullpen. I'm not sure how long you've been a baseball fan or when you started "rooting" for the Yankees but for each of their last four rings, they didn't win any of em with one lefty in the pen who was good for getting one out every three or four days.
The yankees won their rings becaue they had good arms out of the pen. Weither they were left or right meant nothing. Mike Stanton was a good pitcher. It didn't matter if he was lefty or righty. Same with Jeff Nelson, Mendoza, Rivera or Wettland. It's not an obcession to not what to give up valuable trade chips for lefty set up men.

The reason to have a lefty in the pen is to get leftys out right? Well lefties hit 227 off of Schoeneweis and you don't have to give up any players to get him.


Okay, what you're thinking of is referred to as a lefty specialist. If you look at the Yankees 40 man roster you'll see Mike Myers listed under the pitchers. He's a lefty specialist.

However, history has shown that the Yankees success is enhanced when they have a very good lefty in the 'pen who can come in and get one or two tough lefty batters with a righty sandwiched in between. Some managers, in a strategic move will stagger their batting order so they have a lefty, then a righty, then a lefty, etc...

A guy like scrubenweiss cannot be counted on to come in a go more than one batter in that situation. Over the past thee seaons he's allowed righty batters to hit almost .300 against him. I'd prefer a guy like Mike Gonzalez who has shown the ability to shut down lefties AND righties. Mike Myers is a one trick pony and in a move to add versatility to the bullpen. No more one dimensional pitchers please.

Okay, what you're thinking of is referred to as a lefty specialist. If you look at the Yankees 40 man roster you'll see Mike Myers listed under the pitchers. He's a lefty specialist.

However, history has shown that the Yankees success is enhanced when they have a very good lefty in the 'pen who can come in and get one or two tough lefty batters with a righty sandwiched in between. Some managers, in a strategic move will stagger their batting order so they have a lefty, then a righty, then a lefty, etc...

A guy like scrubenweiss cannot be counted on to come in a go more than one batter in that situation. Over the past thee seaons he's allowed righty batters to hit almost .300 against him. I'd prefer a guy like Mike Gonzalez who has shown the ability to shut down lefties AND righties.They had ONE very good lefty. Mike Stanton. ONE. Thats anything but a pattern. Is Mike Gonzalez a good lefty? Yes. Is he worth giving up 2 valuable trade chips for? No. You want to trade Proctor for him who also shut down lefties and rightys last year.

They had ONE very good lefty. Mike Stanton. ONE. Thats anything but a pattern. Is Mike Gonzalez a good lefty? Yes. Is he worth giving up 2 valuable trade chips for? No. You want to trade Proctor for him who also shut down lefties and rightys last year.

Hey madmike, ever heard of a guy by the name of Graeme Lloyd? He was one of the biggest parts of the Yanks winning the WS in '96. His name was not Mike Stanton. Again, I don't know what year you started watching the Yankees and Lloyd stepped up big in the post season in '96. You might have started watching the Yankees after they started winning rings so you wouldn't recall Lloyd. The guy came in to several big spots against one of the best lefty hitter in baseball in Fred McGriff and got the job done. The Yankees also tried a million other lefties that couldn't get it done. That's why Stanton was the mainstay. Look back at their rosters from those seasons and they were always looking for a second lefty to compliment Stanton.

Bottom line...I hope Brian Cashman continues his persuit of another lefty instead of taking your approach of grabbing another scrub to take Villones spot.

Hey madmike, ever heard of a guy by the name of Graeme Lloyd? He was one of the biggest parts of the Yanks winning the WS in '96. His name was not Mike Stanton. Again, I don't know what year you started watching the Yankees and Lloyd stepped up big in the post season in '96. You might have started watching the Yankees after they started winning rings so you wouldn't recall Lloyd. The guy came in to several big spots against one of the best lefty hitter in baseball in Fred McGriff and got the job done. The Yankees also tried a million other lefties that couldn't get it done.

Bottom line...I hope Brian Cashman continues his persuit of another lefty instead of taking your approach of grabbing another scrub to take Villones spot.
Lloyd was the CLASSIC lefty specialist you say you don't want. He's the EXACT same player as Mike Myers he never pitched against rightys. He pitched 47 and 39 IP in his 2 years with the yankees thats EXACTLY what a lefty specialist does. Oh and the player that Lloyd dominated in 96 was Ryan Klesko not Mcgriff.

Lloyd was the CLASSIC lefty specialist you say you don't want. He's the EXACT same player as Mike Myers he never pitched against rightys. He pitched 47 and 39 IP in his 2 years with the yankees thats EXACTLY what a lefty specialist does. Oh and the player that Lloyd dominated in 96 was Ryan Klesko not Mcgriff.

No madmike...Lloyd is the guy we already have. Again...check the roster, his name is Mike Myers. Now we need a guy to be what Mike Stanton was. It's not that I dont want a lefty specialist, I just don't want do do what you said which is to add another one to the 'pen. One is enough.

No madmike...Lloyd is the guy we already have. Again...check the roster, his name is Mike Myers. Now we need a guy to be what Mike Stanton was. It's not that I dont want a lefty specialist, I just don't want do do what you said which is to add another one to the 'pen. One is enough.
A righty pitcher can EASILY do the job Stanton did.

Lloyd was the CLASSIC lefty specialist you say you don't want. He's the EXACT same player as Mike Myers he never pitched against rightys. He pitched 47 and 39 IP in his 2 years with the yankees thats EXACTLY what a lefty specialist does. Oh and the player that Lloyd dominated in 96 was Ryan Klesko not Mcgriff.

Wrong again..throughout his career Fred McGriff made a living off of Yankee pitching. When the Blue Jays came to town is was a lock that McGriff would go yard. He clobbered a homer in game one and four and was by far Atlantas best lefty bat in the post season. Lloyd may have gotten Klesko as well...but it was situations like the ones below that I was referring to. I watched the games Mike, and I remember them very well.



Fred McGriff Kills an Atlanta Rally by Grounding into a Double Play in the Ninth Inning of Game 4
Atlanta first baseman Fred McGriff came to bat in the bottom of the ninth winning with the chance to win the game for his team. Atlanta had runners on first and second with one out in a tie game. Yankee pitcher Graeme Lloyd got McGriff to hit into an inning ending double play

Wrong again..throughout his career Fred McGriff made a living off of Yankee pitching. When the Blue Jays came to town is was a lock that McGriff would go yard. He clobbered a homer in game one and was by far Atlantas best lefty bat. Lloyd may have gotten Klesko as well...but it was situations like the ones below that I was referring to. I watched the games Mike, and I remember them very well.



Fred McGriff Kills an Atlanta Rally by Grounding into a Double Play in the Ninth Inning of Game 4
Atlanta first baseman Fred McGriff came to bat in the bottom of the ninth winning with the chance to win the game for his team. Atlanta had runners on first and second with one out in a tie game. Yankee pitcher Graeme Lloyd got McGriff to hit into an inning ending double playWhats your point? You're using one or two games say how EVERY bullpen should be made up.Mike Myers is the EXACT SAME PLAYER as Lloyd and thats the role you need a left hander for. You yourself said that the reason you liked stanton is that he was able to get both lefties and rightys out therefore a righty who can also get lefties out (LIKE SCOTT PROCTOR) can do the same job as a guy like Stanton.

A righty pitcher can EASILY do the job Stanton did.

Then please be so kind Mike and explain to me why pitchers like Ron Villone and Scott Scrubenweiss continue to get signed year after year despite having career ERAs over 5.00? Are you that much smarter than every GM in MLB?

Then please be so kind Mike and explain to me why pitchers like Ron Villone and Scott Scrubenweiss continue to get signed year after year despite having career ERAs over 5.00? Are you that much smarter than every GM in MLB?
Because those 2 pitchers are effective against leftys and villone was effective against rightys last year until torre overused him flagrantly. And because it makes A LOT more sense to sign a guy like that giving up only money then giving up valuable trading chips for set up men.

Because those 2 pitchers are effective against leftys and villone was effective against rightys last year until torre overused him flagrantly. And because it makes A LOT more sense to sign a guy like that giving up only money then giving up valuable trading chips for set up men.

So is it Joe Torres fault that Ron Villone has sucked for his entire career or just for two and half months last season. Just wondering what the excuse would be for that.

Because those 2 pitchers are effective against leftys and villone was effective against rightys last year until torre overused him flagrantly. And because it makes A LOT more sense to sign a guy like that giving up only money then giving up valuable trading chips for set up men.

So you do want to pay two different guys to do the same job? How smart would a GM look for paying two lefty specialists and still not having a lefty who can give him a couple of innings without watching his ERA go through the roof. Oh wait, I know. Maybe Scrubenweiss will go two innings, give up two solo homers but that would be AWESOME because his WHIP would be a staggering 1.00. I mean, who the hell cares about a 9.00 ERA, you've said yourself many times that ERA is meaningless.

So is it Joe Torres fault that Ron Villone has sucked for his entire career or just for two and half months last season. Just wondering what the excuse would be for that.

Take a look at Villone's IP per month.

April May June he pitched 9 13 and 13 IP and he went into the all star break with a 2.27 ERA, a 201 BAA and only 2 homers.

After the break in July he pitched a taxing 17 IP and in august he pitched over 22 IP which is ABSURD for a middle RP. And that dosn't even take into account the fact that he was up throwing in the bullpen almost every game that he didn't come in to.
There should be no surprise to anyone that he numbers got a hell of a lot worse after the break.

Because those 2 pitchers are effective against leftys and villone was effective against rightys last year until torre overused him flagrantly. And because it makes A LOT more sense to sign a guy like that giving up only money then giving up valuable trading chips for set up men.

So I take it you're also under the impression that Mariano Rivera has eight or nine seasons left in him so the Yankees shouldn't look at a young guy with closers experience and see if he can handle New York as a set up man? Ya know...kinda like thinking ahead.

Take a look at Villone's IP per month.

April May June he pitched 9 13 and 13 IP and he went into the all star break with a 2.27 ERA, a 201 BAA and only 2 homers.

After the break in July he pitched a taxing 17 IP and in august he pitched over 22 IP which is ABSURD for a middle RP. And that dosn't even take into account the fact that he was up throwing in the bullpen almost every game that he didn't come in to.
There should be no surprise to anyone that he numbers got a hell of a lot worse after the break.


Okay, I did...and you're right..he pitched well for a couple of months. Now you go look at his stats over the past 13 seasons. He's a scrub.

So you do want to pay two different guys to do the same job? How smart would a GM look for paying two lefty specialists and still not having a lefty who can give him a couple of innings without watching his ERA go through the roof. Oh wait, I know. Maybe Scrubenweiss will go two innings, give up two solo homers but that would be AWESOME because his WHIP would be a staggering 1.00. I mean, who the hell cares about a 9.00 ERA, you've said yourself many times that ERA is meaningless.
I said many times i don't think the yankees need to sign Schoeneweis or Villone. I'd just rather sign them then give up alot of value for another set up man. I think the yankee pen is fine the way it is.

So I take it you're also under the impression that Mariano Rivera has eight or nine seasons left in him so the Yankees shouldn't look at a young guy with closers experience and see if he can handle New York as a set up man? Ya know...kinda like thinking ahead.
I have NO IDEA if Mike gonzalez can replace rivera and because that won't need to happen for 3 more years at least the yankees would be better served to wait till Joe Nathan or a healthy Gagne hit the FA market.

You yourself said that the reason you liked stanton is that he was able to get both lefties and rightys out therefore a righty who can also get lefties out (LIKE SCOTT PROCTOR) can do the same job as a guy like Stanton.

Gonzalez' numbers say he does it better. As a Yankee fan, that's what I want. Better players. I know I'm a bit crazy sometimes.

Okay, I did...and you're right..he pitched well for a couple of months. Now you go look at his stats over the past 13 seasons. He's a scrub.
He's had up and down years like MOST of the set up men in baseball.

I have NO IDEA if Mike gonzalez can replace rivera and because that won't need to happen for 3 more years at least the yankees would be better served to wait till Joe Nathan or a healthy Gagne hit the FA market.

LOL...LOL...LOL...okay, so no to Mike Gonzalez because we can try to get Gagne in three years..I'm done dude. Just when I think you can't say something more riddiculous you go and throw that out there.

Gonzalez' numbers say he does it better. As a Yankee fan, that's what I want. Better players. I know I'm a bit crazy sometimes.
His numbers over one year in a baseball wasteland in the NL. PLUS having to give up 2 young players with value who should be traded to fill the yankees real need, first base. No thanks.

LOL...LOL...LOL...okay, so no to Mike Gonzalez because we can try to get Gagne in three years..I'm done dude. Just when I think you can't say something more riddiculous you go and throw that out there.
Exactly. Rivera isn't retiring so you're overpaying for a SET UP MAN. NOT A CLOSER.

He's had up and down years like MOST of the set up men in baseball.

Can you never admit that you're wrong? Get off the Villone bandwagon. In 11 seasons he has managed an ERA below 4.00 just three times. Seems like he had some up and down, down, down, down, down, up, down, up, down, down years.

Exactly. Rivera isn't retiring so you're overpaying for a SET UP MAN. NOT A CLOSER.

Eric Gagne baby...he's the future...LOL

His numbers over one year in a baseball wasteland in the NL.

Ummmm, didn't the Yankess just pay 16 mill for one year for a pitcher that pitched in that "wasteland"?

His numbers over one year in a baseball wasteland in the NL. PLUS having to give up 2 young players with value who should be traded to fill the yankees real need, first base. No thanks.

What two young players with value are we talking about?

Can you never admit that you're wrong? Get off the Villone bandwagon. In 11 seasons he has managed an ERA below 4.00 just three times. Seems like he had some up and down, down, down, down, down, up, down, up, down, down years.
What am i wrong about? I've said OVER AND OVER that the yankees should let Villone walk? These set up men are almost interchangeable and the yankees have ALOT of depth at that spot. Trading 2 valuable trade chips for ANOTHER set up man just weakens the yankees chances to get a good 1B.

Ummmm, didn't the Yankess just pay 16 mill for one year for a pitcher that pitched in that "wasteland"?

Yep

What two young players with value are we talking about?
Melky and Proctor.

Ummmm, didn't the Yankess just pay 16 mill for one year for a pitcher that pitched in that "wasteland"?When i said baseball wasteland i was talking about pitsburgh not the NL.

What am i wrong about? I've said OVER AND OVER that the yankees should let Villone walk? These set up men are almost interchangeable and the yankees have ALOT of depth at that spot. Trading 2 valuable trade chips for ANOTHER set up man just weakens the yankees chances to get a good 1B.

If you believe that set-up men are interchangeable, you just haven't been watching basball the last decade

What am i wrong about? I've said OVER AND OVER that the yankees should let Villone walk? These set up men are almost interchangeable and the yankees have ALOT of depth at that spot. Trading 2 valuable trade chips for ANOTHER set up man just weakens the yankees chances to get a good 1B.

Well, for one you said I was wrong about McGriff but oddly enough you ignored the post where I proved you wrong so that was one. Then the fact that you continually blame Torre for the fact that Ron Villone is a friggin bum which I tried to tell you at the all-star break but I was crazy for wanting to replace him since he had just had the best two months of his baseball life at age 72.

If you believe that set-up men are interchangeable, you just haven't been watching basball the last decade

I concur

If you believe that set-up men are interchangeable, you just haven't been watching basball the last decade
There are a few GREAT set up men. After that everyone is up and down. Thats why smart teams like the A's change their set up men almost every year because they get more money then they are worth.

When i said baseball wasteland i was talking about pitsburgh not the NL.

How would pitching for Pittsburgh, affect the batters that Gonzalez faces?

Melky and Proctor.

Please show me where I suggested that. Thanks.

How would pitching for Pittsburgh, affect the batters that Gonzalez faces?

SD nails it again.

Well, for one you said I was wrong about McGriff but oddly enough you ignored the post where I proved you wrong so that was one. Then the fact that you continually blame Torre for the fact that Ron Villone is a friggin bum which I tried to tell you at the all-star break but I was crazy for wanting to replace him since he had just had the best two months of his baseball life at age 72.
The yankees didn't lose in the playoffs before of Ron Villone. Replacing him would've made zero difference and if you can't see that torre overused him by the pure number of innings then you just arn't living in reality.

Please show me where I suggested that. Thanks.
This WHOLE THREAD is based on an article that says the yankees would have to give up Melky and Proctor. Didn't you read about the trade you've been defending for 6 pages?

How would pitching for Pittsburgh, affect the batters that Gonzalez faces?1. It's clear that certian players don't respond well to new york and the yankees take that chance every time they bring a player here. Pitching in Pitt and New York are very different animals.

2 The NL just isn't as good.

The yankees didn't lose in the playoffs before of Ron Villone. Replacing him would've made zero difference and if you can't see that torre overused him by the pure number of innings then you just arn't living in reality.

Okay, I never said the Yankees lost because of Villone so please refrain from misrepresenting the points I am making. One of which is that Ron Villone was a bum before the Yankees got him. For a couple of months he pitched like he wasn't a bum. Then he morphed in to Ron Villone. Hey, you think maybe he wouldn't have been overused if the Yankees had another reliable lefty in the 'pen? We had one last season who got burned out (your boy Villone) and you want to go in to this season with none?

This WHOLE THREAD is based on an article that says the yankees would have to give up Melky and Proctor. Didn't you read about the trade you've been defending for 6 pages?

I asked where I said that was a good deal. I never did. Get it right. Havent you read the quotes of the person you've been arguing with for the last five pages?

Okay, I never said the Yankees lost because of Villone so please refrain from misrepresenting the points I am making. One of which is that Ron Villone was a bum before the Yankees got him. For a couple of months he pitched like he wasn't a bum. Then he morphed in to Ron Villone. Hey, you think maybe he wouldn't have been overused if the Yankees had another reliable lefty in the 'pen? We had one last season who got burned out (your boy Villone) and you want to go in to this season with none?
It didn't matter if it was lefty or righty. Proctor was overused too and he's not a lefty. They go into next season with more arms then they did last year.

During the season I suggested Proctor and Phillips (with Villone if PItt would take him) but as much as I'd like the guy in pinstripes, I think Melky and Proctor is too much. JMO.


I can see why you missed this earlier. It was allll the way down at the second quote in this thread. Ya' know...where it started.

There are a few GREAT set up men. After that everyone is up and down. Thats why smart teams like the A's change their set up men almost every year because they get more money then they are worth.

How many Championships Have the A's won, since the real advocacy of set-up men?

First you said "ste up men are interchangeable" and then you said "there are few great set-up men".

Set-up men don't get the accolades and the good ones toil in anonimity.

Look at the teams that scurry after a Scott Linebrink. Baseball people know.

The Mets are crushed by a Chad Bradford defection.

1

2 The NL just isn't as good.

And again, The Yankees just signed a NL pitcher, who was mediocre in total to 16 million dollars for a year.

How many Championships Have the A's won, since the real advocacy of set-up men?

First you said "ste up men are interchangeable" and then you said "there are few great set-up men".

Set-up men don't get the accolades and the good ones toil in anonimity.

Look at the teams that scurry after a Scott Linebrink. Baseball people know.

The Mets are crushed by a Chad Bradford defection.

I admire madmikes passion but he's so obsessed with off the wall stats that he ignores the basics to try and look smarter than the average fan.

How many Championships Have the A's won, since the real advocacy of set-up men?

First you said "ste up men are interchangeable" and then you said "there are few great set-up men".

Set-up men don't get the accolades and the good ones toil in anonimity.

Look at the teams that scurry after a Scott Linebrink. Baseball people know.

The Mets are crushed by a Chad Bradford defection.
I should've said MOST set up men are interchangeable. The mets will be fine without bradford. The a's haven't won because the playoffs are crap shoot as we've seen this year.

I admire madmikes passion but he's so obsessed with off the wall stats that he ignores the basics to try and look smarter than the average fan.
What off the wall stats? The "basics" is just going with conventional wisdom and not even trying to come up with better ways to judge players and their values. Why should a judge a player on batting AVG when i have a better stat like OPS to judge him with? Why should a judge a player on luck based stats like RBI's and R's when i have better stats at my disposal?

I should've said MOST set up men are interchangeable. The mets will be fine without bradford. The a's haven't won because the playoffs are crap shoot as we've seen this year.

So the Yankees dynasty-Just mostly luck in a crapshoot?

So the Yankees dynasty-Just mostly luck in a crapshoot?
A big element of any team winning the series is luck and the same goes for the yankees.

What off the wall stats? The "basics" is just going with conventional wisdom and not even trying to come up with better ways to judge players and their values. Why should a judge a player on batting AVG when i have a better stat like OPS to judge him with? Why should a judge a player on luck based stats like RBI's and R's when i have better stats at my disposal?

Your "stats" would suggest that Keith Foulke is better than Mike Gonzalez. My basic understanding of the game and lack of desire to dazzle people with new wave baseball math would tell me otherwise.

A big element of any team winning the series is luck and the same goes for the yankees.

Yes, some luck...but believe it or not...you've gotta have good players too. Scott Scrubenweiss and his 5.88 ERA and .295 BAA righties is not good.

A big element of any team winning the series is luck and the same goes for the yankees.

I would disagree, but youi are entitled to your opinion.

Back to the A's and their middle-men, isn't it awfully coincidental that luck continues to play against them in so many playoff series in a row?

Just an observation.

BTW-The White Sox won it last year on great starting pitching alone. They thought they could get by on that again, and the middle men let their staff down after the starters could not hold it.

I have seen many a "great" baseball team be let down entirely by not having good set-up men.

Yes, some luck...but believe it or not...you've gotta have good players too. Scott Scrubenweiss and his 5.88 ERA and .295 BAA righties is not good.
the yankees have alot of good players in their bullpen right now and thats only getting better. and the teams that won titles had role players as well.

Your "stats" would suggest that Keith Foulke is better than Mike Gonzalez. My basic understanding of the game and lack of desire to dazzle people with new wave baseball math would tell me otherwise.
What stat are you talking about?

And again, The Yankees just signed a NL pitcher, who was mediocre in total to 16 million dollars for a year.


I think it might have had something to do with this pitcher being a former AL pitcher who won 4 WS titles with the Yankees.

On Mike Gonzalez, I would love to have him. I'd hate to give up Proctor AND Melky, 1 of the 2 and something else, but not both. Proctors value wont be any higher than it is right now, and I really have concerns that a RP who throws over 100 innings in a single season will be healthy the entire season next year.

We do need a real lefty reliever to get guys out. Myers is good for Oritz and nothing else really, at least thats how Torre uses him.

Torre has no idea how to manage a bullpen.

the yankees have alot of good players in their bullpen right now and thats only getting better. and the teams that won titles had role players as well.

You're right. The players they have are good, so Brian Cashman should just stop being all crazy and trying to make them better. Just settle for what you have. No need for improvement. What's that? We just got an offer of Scot Shields for Sean Henn? Nah, tell em we're good. We don't need to get better.

So the Yankees dynasty-Just mostly luck in a crapshoot?


keyword: dynasty. ie winning more than once disproves any thoughts of luck.

Who actually thinks the cardinals were the best team in baseball this past year? Not even the best team in their own league. I wouldnt care though if I was a cards fan, win a WS championship any way you can.

What stat are you talking about?

WHIP for one. I cold care less if a guys WHIP is 3.00. If he comes in and walks the bases loaded every time he comes in to the game before getting out of the inning and getting the save I'll take it. What the hell does it matter how many baserunners a guy allows as long as they don't cross the plate. Thats what matters Mike. You lose games because too many guys who get on base come all the way around and touch home plate. You said several times that Gonzalez sucked because he didn't have a great WHIP. So that's why I mentioned the fact that Keith Foulke had a bette WHIP at the time but had been demoted and sported an ERA around 6.00. Based on your obsession with WHIP, you would take a guy who gives up a walk and a homer over a guy who gives up a walk and two singles before getting out of a scoreless inning. Please explain to me how that makes sense. I want pithcers who don't allow runs. Not pitchers who allow a ton of runs but are very efficient because they don't need a lot of batters to do it.

WHIP for one. I cold care less if a guys WHIP is 3.00. If he comes in and walks the bases loaded every time he comes in to the game before getting out of the inning and getting the save I'll take it. What the hell does it matter how many baserunners a guy allows as long as they don't cross the plate. Thats what matters Mike. You lose games because too many guys who get on base come all the way around and touch home plate. You said several times that Gonzalez sucked because he didn't have a great WHIP. So that's why I mentioned the fact that Keith Foulke had a bette WHIP at the time but had been demoted and sported an ERA around 6.00. Based on your obsession with WHIP, you would take a guy who gives up a walk and a homer over a guy who gives up a walk and two singles before getting out of a scoreless inning. Please explain to me how that makes sense. I want pithcers who don't allow runs. Not pitchers who allow a ton of runs but are very efficient because they don't need a lot of batters to do it.You think WHIP is an advanced "new wave" baseball stat?

You think WHIP is an advanced "new wave" baseball stat?


No, I think it's an overrated stat that people like you fall in love with. That and VORP.

Please explain to me why it's more important to have a guy who allows fewer baserunners as opposed to a guy who allows less runs. Explain that to me please.

keyword: dynasty. ie winning more than once disproves any thoughts of luck.

Who actually thinks the cardinals were the best team in baseball this past year? Not even the best team in their own league. I wouldnt care though if I was a cards fan, win a WS championship any way you can.

They only play one World Series and League Championship series each year. It is very possible that one team could get lucky 2-3 years in a row. That coincidence is certainly not beyond numerical factions, if we are talking strictly luck.

Cardinals were the best TEAM in baseball this year. Deal with it.

No, I think it's an overrated stat that people like you fall in love with. That and VORP.

Please explain to me why it's more important to have a guy who allows fewer baserunners as opposed to a guy who allows less runs. Explain that to me please.
Because there is a bigger element of luck in runs their their are in base runners. (though there is a big element of luck in base runners too)

Because there is a bigger element of luck in runs their their are in base runners. (though there is a big element of luck in base runners too)

So that's it huh? That's your answer? It's better to have a guy who allows more runs because of luck. Wonderful. You've changed my mind forever..how did it take me so long to grasp the concept.

Hey, maybe the Yankees should make a run at Scott Scrubenweiss after all..I heard he won ten bucks on a scrach off last weekend. That is one lucky dude. Or maybe go out and sign all of the worst free agents on the market because let's face it, they'd be lucky to get a contract offer which would mean a lower WHIP and of course we all know championships are won on luck...now I get it.

So that's it huh? That's your answer? It's better to have a guy who allows more runs because of luck. Wonderful. You've changed my mind forever..how did it take me so long to grasp the concept.

Hey, maybe the Yankees should make a run at Scott Scrubenweiss after all..I heard he won ten bucks on a scrach off last weekend. That is one lucky dude. Or maybe go out and sign all of the worst free agents on the market because let's face it, they'd be lucky to get a contract offer which would mean a lower WHIP and of course we all know championships are won on luck...now I get it.
The idea of stats is to come up with the best ways to
A. Separate what a player has control of from luck and put a value on it.
B. Use previous performance as a way of trying to predict what will happen in the future.

An example of this was Jon Lester. When he first came up crazy carl was signing his praises because of his good ERA. I said that because his WHIP was so high there was a very good chance that his ERA was caused by luck and that it would correct itself and thats exactly what happened. You can't pitch to a high WHIP for any extended period of time and expect to get away with it. The WHIP is the root cause. The ERA is only the symptom.

They only play one World Series and League Championship series each year. It is very possible that one team could get lucky 2-3 years in a row. That coincidence is certainly not beyond numerical factions, if we are talking strictly luck.

Cardinals were the best TEAM in baseball this year. Deal with it.


2-3 yrs in a row is luck? LOL. Its called a trend, and it was 4 out of 5 for the Yankees dynasty.....

The cards had 86 wins last year, they werent the best anything. They barely made the facking playoffs. They got hot and beat the padres, a better mets team, and the not stongest team in the AL. I could care less that they won, I was rooting for them to win it, but they werent the best team, get real.

The idea of stats is to come up with the best ways to
A. Separate what a player has control of from luck and put a value on it.
B. Use previous performance as a way of trying to predict what will happen in the future.

An example of this was Jon Lester. When he first came up crazy carl was signing his praises because of his good ERA. I said that because his WHIP was so high there was a very good chance that his ERA was caused by luck and that it would correct itself and thats exactly what happened. You can't pitch to a high WHIP for any extended period of time and expect to get away with it. The WHIP is the root cause. The ERA is only the symptom.

Right, so how does this example of one player prove that it's better to have pitchers who give up more runs as opposed to more base runners. No matter how you spin it and try to dress it up..giving up runs still loses games. Allowing baserunners puts you at risk to lose a game. I'd rather win with a risky pitcher on the mound than lose with one who just gave up a three run bomb. JMO though because I'm talking about the basics here. Ya' know. Winning as opposed to looking good but losing.

2-3 yrs in a row is luck? LOL. Its called a trend, and it was 4 out of 5 for the Yankees dynasty.....

The cards had 86 wins last year, they werent the best anything. They barely made the facking playoffs. They got hot and beat the padres, a better mets team, and the not stongest team in the AL. I could care less that they won, I was rooting for them to win it, but they werent the best team, get real.

Barton, If you bothered to watch Cardinal and NL baseball, you will realize what happened with teir team:

They lost their best hitter, and close to teh best hitter in baseball for a period, and he was hampered as well late.

They lost their closer mid-Season, and had to prompt a rookie into the spot.

They lost one of their best starters mid-season.

While they did not have the mosty wins, thayt can not preclude them from having the best TEAM. Which they did. You win a 7 game series, you are the best TEAM most times.

As far as "luck" and a dynasty. Barton, if I had a die in my hand, conceivably I could call that I would roll a "one" on that die in 3 consecutive roll, and even do it. That would be luck, but it COULD happen.

If you want to call the Cardinals winning "luck" I am forced to call teh Yankees dynastry "luck"

i don't believe it, but by your convoluted way of looking at things, it is conceivable

Right, so how does this example of one player prove that it's better to have pitchers who give up more runs as opposed to more base runners. No matter how you spin it and try to dress it up..giving up runs still loses games. Allowing baserunners puts you at risk to lose a game. I'd rather win with a risky pitcher on the mound than lose with one who just gave up a three run bomb. JMO though because I'm talking about the basics here. Ya' know. Winning as opposed to looking good but losing.Because pitchers who give up the most base runners will give up the most runs over any sample size.

Because pitchers who give up the most base runners will give up the most runs over any sample size.

So because most pitchers will give up more runs if they give up more baserunners, there's no need to scout individual players who have a knack for working out of jams? Is that what you're saying? So we can take the collective average stats of every pitcher in baseball and apply it to guys who don't actually give up runs. A pitcher like Gonzalez who sports an ERA in the twos should be avoided because a bunch of other guys who are not as good as him have a hard time settling down and working out of a jam. Ignore the fact that he does not give up many runs and saved 24 games in 24 opportunities becuase most guys can't do that. That is just absolutely brillinat. Do you have even the slightest clue as to how absurd that sounds. Don't sign a player because most guys aren't as good as he is. Wonderful.

So because most pitchers will give up more runs if they give up more baserunners, there's no need to scout individual players who have a knack for working out of jams? Is that what you're saying? So we can take the collective average stats of every pitcher in baseball and apply it to guys who don't actually give up runs. A pitcher like Gonzalez who sports an ERA in the twos should be avoided because a bunch of other guys who are not as good as him have a hard time settling down and working out of a jam. Ignore the fact that he does not give up many runs and saved 24 games in 24 opportunities becuase most guys can't do that. That is just absolutely brillinat. Do you have even the slightest clue as to how absurd that sounds. Don't sign a player because most guys aren't as good as he is. Wonderful.The "knack to get out of jams" is nothing more then luck. I didn't say gonzalez should be avoided either i just don't want to give up mekly and proctor for him.

WHIP for one. I cold care less if a guys WHIP is 3.00. If he comes in and walks the bases loaded every time he comes in to the game before getting out of the inning and getting the save I'll take it. What the hell does it matter how many baserunners a guy allows as long as they don't cross the plate. Thats what matters Mike. You lose games because too many guys who get on base come all the way around and touch home plate. You said several times that Gonzalez sucked because he didn't have a great WHIP. So that's why I mentioned the fact that Keith Foulke had a bette WHIP at the time but had been demoted and sported an ERA around 6.00. Based on your obsession with WHIP, you would take a guy who gives up a walk and a homer over a guy who gives up a walk and two singles before getting out of a scoreless inning. Please explain to me how that makes sense. I want pithcers who don't allow runs. Not pitchers who allow a ton of runs but are very efficient because they don't need a lot of batters to do it.
I hear you. But consider this:

A setup man usually comes in with men on base. If he allows them to score, they are charged to the starter. Then the setup guy pitches 2 scoreless innings. So on paper, it looks like he did OK. But the hit or 2 he gave up to allow the inherited runners to score, as well as the hit or 2 he gave up in the remaining 2 innings effect his WHIP.

For a setup guy, IRS and WHIP are important stats. More so then ERA, since 1 bad outing may require 10 scoreless outings to compensate for it.

So, Mike has some logic here, and I think this is the point he was trying to get across.

Barton, If you bothered to watch Cardinal and NL baseball, you will realize what happened with teir team:

They lost their best hitter, and close to teh best hitter in baseball for a period, and he was hampered as well late.

They lost their closer mid-Season, and had to prompt a rookie into the spot.

They lost one of their best starters mid-season.

While they did not have the mosty wins, thayt can not preclude them from having the best TEAM. Which they did. You win a 7 game series, you are the best TEAM most times.

As far as "luck" and a dynasty. Barton, if I had a die in my hand, conceivably I could call that I would roll a "one" on that die in 3 consecutive roll, and even do it. That would be luck, but it COULD happen.

If you want to call the Cardinals winning "luck" I am forced to call teh Yankees dynastry "luck"

i don't believe it, but by your convoluted way of looking at things, it is conceivable
All so very true. But losing Izzy may have been a blessing in disguise, as Wainwrigght was lights out in teh post-season, and I doubt Izzy could have done better, if even as well.

The "knack to get out of jams" is nothing more then luck. I didn't say gonzalez should be avoided either i just don't want to give up mekly and proctor for him.

Dude, that is not the discussion. Melky and Proctor were mentioned in the article. If you had read my immediate response to the article. The post right after the article I said that Melky and Proctor was too much. This discussion goes back to the fact that you said he would be a bad move last season because his WHIP was higher than Villones at the time. Instead of looking at Villones body of work vs. Gonzalez, you took your WHIP obsession and said you wouldnt want him on the team. You've even said in this thread that you wouldn't want either of them.

I don't care what "case study" or "field sample" you want to use but there is no way in hell that you or anybody else is going to spin Gonzalez' stats in a way that makes him a player I wouldnt want on my team. Again, I like players who make my favorite team better. Not a guy who loses games by giving up runs but walking away feeling good about the fact that other than the runners that scored, nobody else reached base. Absurd.

I hear you. But consider this:

A setup man usually comes in with men on base. If he allows them to score, they are charged to the starter. Then the setup guy pitches 2 scoreless innings. So on paper, it looks like he did OK. But the hit or 2 he gave up to allow the inherited runners to score, as well as the hit or 2 he gave up in the remaining 2 innings effect his WHIP.

For a setup guy, IRS and WHIP are important stats. More so then ERA, since 1 bad outing may require 10 scoreless outings to compensate for it.

So, Mike has some logic here, and I think this is the point he was trying to get across.

Gonzalez wasn't a set up man. It would be a new role and nobody knows how he would perform. In addition, Joe Torre has developed a routine of bringing his set up man in to start an inning. He usually lets his middle guys come in with men on base so I don't think it would be an issue. I do know that he is better than Ron Villone. I also know that madmikes suggestion of signing a guy like Scott Showenweiss is absolutely crazy. The guy had an ERA close to six last season and over the last three years has allowed RH hitters to hit almost .300 against him. So he would say no to Gonzalez, but yes to that bum? That's what I would expect a Sox fan to say...not a Yankee fan.

I hear you. But consider this:

A setup man usually comes in with men on base. If he allows them to score, they are charged to the starter. Then the setup guy pitches 2 scoreless innings. So on paper, it looks like he did OK. But the hit or 2 he gave up to allow the inherited runners to score, as well as the hit or 2 he gave up in the remaining 2 innings effect his WHIP.

For a setup guy, IRS and WHIP are important stats. More so then ERA, since 1 bad outing may require 10 scoreless outings to compensate for it.

So, Mike has some logic here, and I think this is the point he was trying to get across.

I disagree...we've had the discussion before and Mike always stands by the fact that WHIP is more important than ERA which is a "meaningless stat" in his mind.

Gonzalez wasn't a set up man. It would be a new role and nobody knows how he would perform. I do know that he is better than Ron Villone. I also know that madmikes suggestion of signing a guy like Scott Showenweiss is absolutely crazy. The guy had an ERA close to six last season and over the last three years has allowed RH hitters to hit almost .300 against him. So he would say no to Gonzalez, but yes to that bum? That's what I would expect a Sox fan to say...not a Yankee fan.

On the Yankees Gonzo would be the setup man for at least 1 more season.

On the Yankees Gonzo would be the setup man for at least 1 more season.

I know that. I was saying that his past performances were not as a set up man. This would be a new role for him that he could fill better than most other options available. JMO of course. He might come over to the Yanks and be the next Paul Gibson.

I disagree...we've had the discussion before and Mike always stands by the fact that WHIP is more important than ERA which is a "meaningless stat" in his mind.

I understand, and recall some of your discussions over the past.

But remember this. A relief pitcher, one who usually goes an inning or so at a time, can give up a 3 run jack in his 1 inning. It will take a long time to get that ERA down to a very respectable 3.00 (basically 6-8 scorless appearances in a row!!), but not so long to get that WHIP down (maybe 2-3 solid innings)

I know that. I was saying that his past performances were not as a set up man. This would be a new role for him that he could fill better than most other options available. JMO of course. He might come over to the Yanks and be the next Paul Gibson.

Paul Gibson??
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/G/Paul-Gibson.shtml
A name from the past. You're OK. :cheers:

I understand, and recall some of your discussions over the past.

But remember this. A relief pitcher, one who usually goes an inning or so at a time, can give up a 3 run jack in his 1 inning. It will take a long time to get that ERA down to a very respectable 3.00 (basically 6-8 scorless appearances in a row!!), but not so long to get that WHIP down (maybe 2-3 solid innings)


Which kind of shows how good Gonzalez has been. To keep an ERA that low for a young kid shows that he's very good on a consistent basis which his WHIP might contradict because it's worse than the league average.

Paul Gibson??
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/G/Paul-Gibson.shtml
A name from the past. You're OK. :cheers:

The guy was friggin horrible.

Which kind of shows how good Gonzalez has been. To keep an ERA that low for a young kid shows that he's very good on a consistent basis which his WHIP might contradict because it's worse than the league average.

Well, the way I look at it is that he is the type of closer who rarely has a 1-2-3 9th, but makes it "exciting" for a while. How? By letting runners on base, but not letting them score.

If he was a setup guy, and let runners on base, that most probably would knock in some inherited runners. A closer rarely faces any inherited runners, as he usually starts the final inning himself. So, in Gonzo's case, he may not be all that effective as a setup guy. That's all I'm saying.

BTW - I still would take him. I have seen bits of him over the past couple of years, and he does look good.

The guy was friggin horrible.


I know.

I was just impressed that you pulled that name out of a hat. He is not exactly a "household" name around Yankee lore. ;)

I know.

I was just impressed that you pulled that name out of a hat. He is not exactly a "household" name around Yankee lore. ;)

A lot of guys from that time frame are unknowns to a lot of Yankee fans. Remember Marcus Lawton (Matts brother)? Man was he bad too. Switch hitting outfileder who could run and that was about it.

Jerry Royster?
Luis Aguayo?
Lenn Sakata?

A lot of guys from that time frame are unknowns to a lot of Yankee fans. Remember Marcus Lawton (Matts brother)? Man was he bad too. Switch hitting outfileder who could run and that was about it.

Jerry Royster?
Luis Aguayo?
Lenn Sakata?

I remember all of them

Royster had some good season in the NL though.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/R/Jerry-Royster.shtml

Nothing great, but decent. I remember that I did not like that trade with the White Sox to get him, since i liked Patterson. But Royster did well in his short time here. Yankees released him at the end of spring training the next season, so he was here for only 1 month or so.

Sakata was signed as a free agent, but hardly ever played. I think he was from Baltimore. Never more then a role player. He was here for 1987 only, I believe.

There are a lot of guys from the 1985 - 1991 time frame who were here for short periods of time, and never did much. Afterwards, when Steinbrenner was suspended, and Stick took over, we built the Farm System, and off we were.

Cashman is doing the same thing now. Finally.

I remember all of them

Royster had some good season in the NL though.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/R/Jerry-Royster.shtml

Nothing great, but decent. I remember that I did not like that trade with the White Sox to get him, since i liked Patterson. But Royster did well in his short time here. Yankees released him at the end of spring training the next season, so he was here for only 1 month or so.

Sakata was signed as a free agent, but hardly ever played. I think he was from Baltimore. Never more then a role player. He was here for 1987 only, I believe.

There are a lot of guys from the 1985 - 1991 time frame who were here for short periods of time, and never did much. Afterwards, when Steinbrenner was suspended, and Stick took over, we built the Farm System, and off we were.

Cashman is doing the same thing now. Finally.

Yep, I became a fan in '87 when I was 11 years old so from there on I remember A LOT of the scrubs that most fans don't recall. I even remember the solid players who I thought were great when I was a kid. Remember Bob Brower? Outfielder they got from Texas...I really thought he was going to be great but I guess when you're 11 or 12 it just takes one or two diving catches to think a player is headed for greatness.

my whip is much larger than average

Barton, If you bothered to watch Cardinal and NL baseball, you will realize what happened with teir team:

They lost their best hitter, and close to teh best hitter in baseball for a period, and he was hampered as well late.

They lost their closer mid-Season, and had to prompt a rookie into the spot.

They lost one of their best starters mid-season.

While they did not have the mosty wins, thayt can not preclude them from having the best TEAM. Which they did. You win a 7 game series, you are the best TEAM most times.

As far as "luck" and a dynasty. Barton, if I had a die in my hand, conceivably I could call that I would roll a "one" on that die in 3 consecutive roll, and even do it. That would be luck, but it COULD happen.

If you want to call the Cardinals winning "luck" I am forced to call teh Yankees dynastry "luck"

i don't believe it, but by your convoluted way of looking at things, it is conceivable


The Mets had tons of injuries, most importantly to their #1 pitcher, and they still won, what, 97 regular season games? Injuries arent a good enough excuse, esp when you play in the NL where there are only 2 or 3 solid teams and garbage throughout. Cardinals have an easy schedule and still won just 86 games.

And good luck trying to get anyone with a brain to think winning 4 out of 5 WS is "luck" to the same as just winning it once.

About this deal, I only like it if we can spin it off into LaRoche, cause Melky isn't the power hitter that we need, not yet at least. On your side, in the end, you're just improving on proctor by getting gonzo, which I agree wouldn't be a good move to make. Considering how thin you guys are, you should really be looking to add that piece instead of just improving on a guy.

Maybe Torre "wore out" villone and nearly proctor because he didn't have anyone else in the pen that he could count on. Good luck going into next year if he only has one guy other than rivera that he feels he can count on. I guess rivera can expect to continue to see a good number of 2 inning appearances.

Huge interest in Gonzalez
Dec 15 - The interest in Gonzalez is heating up, and at least six teams have been talking to the Pirates about a possible trade, reports the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.
The most interested parties appear to be the Braves, Red Sox and Phillies, but GM Dave Littlefield is hoping to get a left-handed power hitter in return, according to the Post-Gazette.

The Pittsburgh Tribune-Review reported that the Diamondbacks dangled Chad Tracy for Gonzalez, but Arizona has apparently shifted its interest toward the Rangers' Akinori Otsuka.

The Braves nearly had a deal with the Pirates that would send first baseman Adam LaRoche to Pittsburgh, but that deal was pulled. The closest player Boston has to fitting Pittsburgh's profile is Eric Hinske, a platoon player who's hit with little power since his rookie year.

The Pirates rejected an offer from the Phillies that would have included right-handed starter Jon Lieber. The Yankees have also looked at Gonzalez, but it's not known what they'd send in return.

The Indians reportedly inquired about Gonzalez as well, but they backed off when the Pirates asked for switch-hitting catcher Victor Martinez in return.

The latest out of Pittsburgh:

Baseball sources indicated Friday that Yankees are willing to part with left-handed hitting outfielder Melky Cabrera straight-up in a trade for Gonzalez. But the Pirates reportedly want a second player included, though the Yankees are highly unlikely to put right-hander Scott Proctor into the deal.

The Boston Red Sox also have interest in Gonzalez. The Red Sox reportedly want more than just Gonzalez in any trade for outfielder Coco Crisp and their need for relief help lessened Friday when they signed left-hander J.C. Romero as a free agent and traded with the Los Angeles Angels for right-hander Brendan Donnelly.

Meanwhile, it appears the Pirates now have almost no shot at trading for Atlanta first baseman Adam LaRoche, who they tried to acquire last week during the winter meetings in Lake Buena Vista, Fla. The Pirates, Braves and Yankees had talks about a potential three-way trade earlier this week but the possibility of that happening now appears dead.

If it's just Melky for Gonzalez thats a hard trade to turn down but i still think that 1B is the yankees biggest need.

The latest out of Pittsburgh:

Baseball sources indicated Friday that Yankees are willing to part with left-handed hitting outfielder Melky Cabrera straight-up in a trade for Gonzalez. But the Pirates reportedly want a second player included, though the Yankees are highly unlikely to put right-hander Scott Proctor into the deal.

The Boston Red Sox also have interest in Gonzalez. The Red Sox reportedly want more than just Gonzalez in any trade for outfielder Coco Crisp and their need for relief help lessened Friday when they signed left-hander J.C. Romero as a free agent and traded with the Los Angeles Angels for right-hander Brendan Donnelly.

Meanwhile, it appears the Pirates now have almost no shot at trading for Atlanta first baseman Adam LaRoche, who they tried to acquire last week during the winter meetings in Lake Buena Vista, Fla. The Pirates, Braves and Yankees had talks about a potential three-way trade earlier this week but the possibility of that happening now appears dead.Is boston serious? They want to trade a worthless player in Crisp and they want MORE then gonzalez? LOL

If it's just Melky for Gonzalez thats a hard trade to turn down but i still think that 1B is the yankees biggest need.


This deal for Gonzalez could very well lead to Proctor being shipped out for a 1st baseman.

Melky for Gonzalez is a no-brainer. There are how many LHed relievers as good and throw as hard as Gonzalez? For the next 2 yrs, Melky wont be starting for us, and corner outfielders can be easily replaced in free agency, I have always said that.

Melky for Gonzalez. Then we can consider moving Proctor + additional player for a 1st baseman, maybe Nick Johnson!

If it's just Melky for Gonzalez thats a hard trade to turn down but i still think that 1B is the yankees biggest need.

Pirates FO is a disgrace if they trade Gonzalez for Melky.

What stat are you talking about?

Billy Martin hated stats.

Baseball instinct.

Some people have it, some don't.

I don't understand this deal, there has to be more to it than this. We need a lefty 1B or RF that can protect Jason Bay. Melky Cabrera isn't that player, so I don't see why we would like this deal if there wasn't something else to it.

And if we traded Gonzo and someone else for Coco Crisp, then I am taking bids to be the hitman that I pay to kill our GM. I wouldn't even trade Marte for Crisp.

The Cubs still need a closer.

If they are seriously thinking of GIVING AWAY Gonzalez for Melky, Hendry should test the waters, at the very least.

Pie + Dempster could probably net quite a bit from the Buccos, judging from their GM's history of giving us players in exchange for complete ****.

Melky is more important to the yankees future than this guy. Bad trade. I'll be pissed when they do it.

If it's just Melky for Gonzalez thats a hard trade to turn down but i still think that 1B is the yankees biggest need.
I wouldn't do this deal straight up. If we trade Melky we lose our 4th outfielder (someone who can play ALL three spots in the OF, and has some serious potential as a hitter if he continues to develop). Melky hit .280 as a rookie, which won't blow anyone away, but its damn good. He also has the defensive skill and arm to play anywhere in the OF. Bernie still has a bat, but he's NOT going to be the 4th OF. He doesn't have the arm to play RF on any regular basis, and his play in CF is still headed downhill. Besides, we need to get younger.

1B is definitely a need. I don't think we need an all-star. Someone who can hit for a decent average and play good defense is all we need. We DO need bullpen help, but not badly enough to do this trade. We need guys who can pitch in the 6th and 7th innings, to keep Proctor and Farnsworth from killing themselves. Lets not forget that we now have 6 starters (Assuming we sign Igawa), so someone is going to be bumped to the pen.

I wouldn't do this deal straight up. If we trade Melky we lose our 4th outfielder (someone who can play ALL three spots in the OF, and has some serious potential as a hitter if he continues to develop). Melky hit .280 as a rookie, which won't blow anyone away, but its damn good. He also has the defensive skill and arm to play anywhere in the OF. Bernie still has a bat, but he's NOT going to be the 4th OF. He doesn't have the arm to play RF on any regular basis, and his play in CF is still headed downhill. Besides, we need to get younger.

1B is definitely a need. I don't think we need an all-star. Someone who can hit for a decent average and play good defense is all we need. We DO need bullpen help, but not badly enough to do this trade. We need guys who can pitch in the 6th and 7th innings, to keep Proctor and Farnsworth from killing themselves. Lets not forget that we now have 6 starters (Assuming we sign Igawa), so someone is going to be bumped to the pen.

I'm really torn on how I'd feel about this trade. Melky is an up and coming player with the potential to be a 4 tool guy with some pop. I like the idea of the Yankees building from within but I guess it's not as bad because this wouldn't be a move being made to add another 40 something pitcher. Gonzalez is a legit young arm to add to the 'pen. I'd be a lot happier if we could package a couple of prospects for Gonzo as opposed to a young guy who has shown he can contribute now. I can't say I blame Pittsburgh for wanting somebody who's shown they can play in the bigs and carries a small price tag. I guess I'd be happy with either guy on the Yanks. Melky or Gonzo and both teams would be getting a very good young player so it's a win win IMO.

They shoulda sent Melky to the instructional league to work him out at 1B and see if he can do it well enough to be a stop gap until Abreus contract is up.

I'm really torn on how I'd feel about this trade. Melky is an up and coming player with the potential to be a 4 tool guy with some pop. I like the idea of the Yankees building from within but I guess it's not as bad because this wouldn't be a move being made to add another 40 something pitcher. Gonzalez is a legit young arm to add to the 'pen. I'd be a lot happier if we could package a couple of prospects for Gonzo as opposed to a young guy who has shown he can contribute now. I can't say I blame Pittsburgh for wanting somebody who's shown they can play in the bigs and carries a small price tag. I guess I'd be happy with either guy on the Yanks. Melky or Gonzo and both teams would be getting a very good young player so it's a win win IMO.


The Pirates correctly asked for both Melky and Proctor originally.....Now it's TBD if they go stupid after the Yanks turned that down and take JUST Melky.

Nothing against Melky but LH closers who go 24-24 in save situations are 100x harder to find then the freaking Melky Cabrera's of baseball.

They shoulda sent Melky to the instructional league to work him out at 1B and see if he can do it well enough to be a stop gap until Abreus contract is up.

Too small?....Maybe not.

Too small?....Maybe not.

That's the only knock I can see...just thinkin' it couldn't have hurt. Cant think of any other way to get his bat/speed in the line up regularly while filling a need without dealing him or another prospect.

The Pirates are talking about a possible deal of Mike Gonzalez with the Yankees; Melky Cabrera would be involved. There are concerns about the condition of Gonzalez's pitching elbow, after he was unavailable for the last 5½ weeks, and he walked 31 in 54 innings last season.


But Gonzalez has excellent stuff, and nobody seems to do serious damage against him. Gonzalez allowed just one home run and six doubles last year: left-handed batters had a .256 slugging percentage, with a .163 average. Right-handed hitters? A .260 slugging percentage.

He sometimes will have long innings, throwing a lot of pitches and putting runners on base with walks. But numbers from last season show he is pretty efficient: Mark Simon of ESPN Research asked the Elias Sports Bureau about how often Gonzalez generated 1-2-3 innings, and Gonzalez, compared to other closers with at least 20 saves, fared pretty well. Here's the list, highest to lowest, of the percentages of 1-2-3 innings:


PCT INN 1-2-3 Pitcher SV
.470 68.1 32 Nathan, Joe, Min. 36
.455 68.1 31 Papelbon, Jonathan, Bos. 35
.413 70.2 29 Street, Huston, Oak. 37
.410 78.1 32 Putz, J.J., Sea. 36
.410 78.1 32 Saito, Takashi, LA-N 24
.391 64.0 25 Jones, Todd, Det. 37
.389 54.0 21 Gonzalez, Mike, Pit. 24
.364 66.0 24 Ray, Chris, Bal. 33
.361 69.2 25 Borowski, Joe, Fla. 36
.349 63.0 22 Hoffman, Trevor, S.D. 46
.347 72.1 25 Wagner, Billy, NY-N 40
.338 59.1 20 Gordon, Tom, Phi. 34
.338 59.2 20 Otsuka, Akinori, Tex. 32
.333 75.0 25 Lidge, Brad, Hou. 32
.333 75.0 25 Rivera, Mariano, NY-A 34
.333 72.1 24 Ryan, B.J., Tor. 38
.328 73.1 24 Cordero, Chad, Was. 29
.301 73.0 22 Rodriguez, Francisco, LA-A 47
.293 75.1 22 Cordero, Francisco, Tex.-Mil. 22
.280 75.0 21 Dempster, Ryan, ChiN 24

Cabrera has quickly developed into a very nice player, a guy who matured greatly as a hitter last season and will continue to progress. If any team trades for Cabrera, at age 22, they're getting a guy who could be at the outset of an unspectacular but very solid 15-year big league career. The Pirates and Yankees have had trouble making trades in the past; we'll see if they get something worked out here.

That's the only knock I can see...just thinkin' it couldn't have hurt. Cant think of any other way to get his bat/speed in the line up regularly while filling a need without dealing him or another prospect.

I wonder why the Yanks don't explore Melky plus a prospect for LaRoche.

If the Pirates can't get a better player than Cabrera straight up for Gonzalez, then we should keep him. Like I said, we need a 4 or 5 spot 1B or RF lefty with power. Melky just doesn't have enough power for a corner OF, maybe he gets that power eventually, but its anybody's guess. You guys could afford that cause your other all-stars would pick up the slack, but we can't, imo. From what I'm seeing and hearing from other people, you guys are hyping him up a ton anyway. I looks to me like he only has a slightly above average arm and doesn't take the best routes. That Trot Nixon inside the park homerun was his fault. He's not worth Gonzo straight up.

The Pirates are talking about a possible deal of Mike Gonzalez with the Yankees; Melky Cabrera would be involved. There are concerns about the condition of Gonzalez's pitching elbow, after he was unavailable for the last 5½ weeks, and he walked 31 in 54 innings last season.


But Gonzalez has excellent stuff, and nobody seems to do serious damage against him. Gonzalez allowed just one home run and six doubles last year: left-handed batters had a .256 slugging percentage, with a .163 average. Right-handed hitters? A .260 slugging percentage.

He sometimes will have long innings, throwing a lot of pitches and putting runners on base with walks. But numbers from last season show he is pretty efficient: Mark Simon of ESPN Research asked the Elias Sports Bureau about how often Gonzalez generated 1-2-3 innings, and Gonzalez, compared to other closers with at least 20 saves, fared pretty well. Here's the list, highest to lowest, of the percentages of 1-2-3 innings:


PCT INN 1-2-3 Pitcher SV
.470 68.1 32 Nathan, Joe, Min. 36
.455 68.1 31 Papelbon, Jonathan, Bos. 35
.413 70.2 29 Street, Huston, Oak. 37
.410 78.1 32 Putz, J.J., Sea. 36
.410 78.1 32 Saito, Takashi, LA-N 24
.391 64.0 25 Jones, Todd, Det. 37
.389 54.0 21 Gonzalez, Mike, Pit. 24
.364 66.0 24 Ray, Chris, Bal. 33
.361 69.2 25 Borowski, Joe, Fla. 36
.349 63.0 22 Hoffman, Trevor, S.D. 46
.347 72.1 25 Wagner, Billy, NY-N 40
.338 59.1 20 Gordon, Tom, Phi. 34
.338 59.2 20 Otsuka, Akinori, Tex. 32
.333 75.0 25 Lidge, Brad, Hou. 32
.333 75.0 25 Rivera, Mariano, NY-A 34
.333 72.1 24 Ryan, B.J., Tor. 38
.328 73.1 24 Cordero, Chad, Was. 29
.301 73.0 22 Rodriguez, Francisco, LA-A 47
.293 75.1 22 Cordero, Francisco, Tex.-Mil. 22
.280 75.0 21 Dempster, Ryan, ChiN 24

Cabrera has quickly developed into a very nice player, a guy who matured greatly as a hitter last season and will continue to progress. If any team trades for Cabrera, at age 22, they're getting a guy who could be at the outset of an unspectacular but very solid 15-year big league career. The Pirates and Yankees have had trouble making trades in the past; we'll see if they get something worked out here.

I am surprised that Gonzalez is this high up, based on our discussion regarding his WHIP.

I am surprised that Gonzalez is this high up, based on our discussion regarding his WHIP.

So was I to be honest. I was starting to think he walked the bases loaded to start every inning from what I was being told about his WHIP being so bad. Apparently not.

I was not suprised.

Ronny Paulino > Melky Cabrera. Just needed to say that too.

Ronny Paulino > Melky Cabrera. Just needed to say that too.


I won't say if the guy is or not because in all honesty I've probably seen him hit three or four times. That being said, I take a multi-tool player over a one dimensional player 9 times out of 10. Melky can run, he can hit for average, he can make the pitching staff better defensively, is a swith hitter, walks as often as he strikes out, and is likely to develop more power.

Looking at Paulinos numbers, it seems he hits for average and a bit of pop that isn't much more than what Melky brings. From what I've read on him defensively he's got potnetial but had a lot of passed balls and a below average fielding pct. Not sure how well he throws out runners but again, that would make him a 2 tool player at this point. I suppose it all comes down to what you're looking for in a player and what makes one "better" than the other. It just appears to me that at this point Melky brings more to the table.

Ronny Paulino > Melky Cabrera. Just needed to say that too.

In your dreams.;)

First rookie catcher since Mike Piazza to play in at least 100 games and bat at least .310, only 2 since 1969.

Paulino: .310/.360/.394, Bases empty: .317, Runners on: .300, RISP: .346, RISP w/2 outs: .367, Bases Loaded: .444
Cabrera: .280/.360/.391, Bases empty: .280, Runners on: .281, RISP: .305, RISP w/2out: .270, Bases Loaded: 450

Imo, Paulino stacks up better vs other catchers in the game than Melky does vs other corner outfielders. That makes him > Cabrera.

First rookie catcher since Mike Piazza to play in at least 100 games and bat at least .310, only 2 since 1969.

Paulino: .310/.360/.394, Bases empty: .317, Runners on: .300, RISP: .346, RISP w/2 outs: .367, Bases Loaded: .444
Cabrera: .280/.360/.391, Bases empty: .280, Runners on: .281, RISP: .305, RISP w/2out: .270, Bases Loaded: 450

Imo, Paulino stacks up better vs other catchers in the game than Melky does vs other corner outfielders. That makes him > Cabrera.

Again, you're entitled to your opinion. I wasn't comparing Melky to other outfielders, I was comparing him to the player you compared him to. Melky is a four tool player at this point lacking only in power. Paulino is a one or two tool player. I'll take the player who brings more to the table. Again, it's all a matter of opinion but the bottom line is that they're both good young players.

Again, you're entitled to your opinion. I wasn't comparing Melky to other outfielders, I was comparing him to the player you compared him to. Melky is a four tool player at this point lacking only in power. Paulino is a one or two tool player. I'll take the player who brings more to the table. Again, it's all a matter of opinion but the bottom line is that they're both good young players.

You tell 'im.;)

My opinion of Melky Cabrera is that he isn't a 4 tool player. He's almost a 4 tool player. He's a tweener in nearly everything. He's not really fast, but he has above average speed. He's not excellent in the field, but he's a little above average and has the potential to make excellent plays once in a while. But also has the potential to really screw it up. He doesn't have a cannon for an arm, but he's not johnny damon or coco crisp, just not a right field arm. Assists just mean that people are willing to run on him, just cause melky has more assists than vlad doesn't mean he has a stronger or nearly as strong an arm. Jason Bay had 11 assists last year, you probably couldnt find a pirate fan that would say he has a great arm, which is why he's in left field. He doesn't have enough power for a corner outfielder, and may never have enough. And he can hit for average and take a walk. He would be alright on the yankees though, you guys should keep him. Maybe he will be a 3 or 4 tool player someday.

My opinion of Melky Cabrera is that he isn't a 4 tool player. He's almost a 4 tool player. He's a tweener in nearly everything. He's not really fast, but he has above average speed. He's not excellent in the field, but he's a little above average and has the potential to make excellent plays once in a while. But also has the potential to really screw it up. He doesn't have a cannon for an arm, but he's not johnny damon or coco crisp, just not a right field arm. Assists just mean that people are willing to run on him, just cause melky has more assists than vlad doesn't mean he has a stronger or nearly as strong an arm. Jason Bay had 11 assists last year, you probably couldnt find a pirate fan that would say he has a great arm, which is why he's in left field. He doesn't have enough power for a corner outfielder, and may never have enough. And he can hit for average and take a walk. He would be alright on the yankees though, you guys should keep him. Maybe he will be a 3 or 4 tool player someday.

As I said, you're entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. IMO he's already a 4 tool player. Maybe even 3 if you want to say he hasn't hit for a very high average yet although he was around .290 for a large part of the season if I'm not mistaken. The guy struggled defenively early in both of his call ups but after a few weeks he was well above average. I don't recall saying that he was top shelf or elite in any category. Simply that he possessed the ability to beat a team several different ways and at a very young age there is no reason to expect him not to get better. As I said several times during the season, his plate discipline is better than the majority of veteran hitters you'll see on a daily basis. This is something that hitters usually take years to develop and some never do. Melky is going to be a hell of a ballplayer for somebody for years to come. As far as his assists and how they apply to his throwing arm, I agree. I've always said that some players assists are inflated by the fact that they have a weak arm and teams run on them constantly. Melky on the other hand has what I would consider a very strong arm having seen him play on a regular basis. Again, not elite but well above average. I'd still take a young guy who's above average in 3-4 categories over a guy who hits for average and might play some okay defense. JMO.

I think I like his arm more than his speed.

Like you said, Cabrera should get better, so should Paulino. He was considered the top defensive catcher in the Pirates system, he slipped a little last year and will improve there. Also, with his frame his power will come eventually. Catchers are at a premium in the big leagues these days, even quality backup catchers are getting huge paydays. Paulino compared to others at his position is just more valuable than melky compared to other corner outfielders.

In any case, I doubt Cabrera's a Pirate in 07, all these rumors are just posturing.

My opinion of Melky Cabrera is that he isn't a 4 tool player. He's almost a 4 tool player. He's a tweener in nearly everything. He's not really fast, but he has above average speed. He's not excellent in the field, but he's a little above average and has the potential to make excellent plays once in a while. But also has the potential to really screw it up. He doesn't have a cannon for an arm, but he's not johnny damon or coco crisp, just not a right field arm. Assists just mean that people are willing to run on him, just cause melky has more assists than vlad doesn't mean he has a stronger or nearly as strong an arm. Jason Bay had 11 assists last year, you probably couldnt find a pirate fan that would say he has a great arm, which is why he's in left field. He doesn't have enough power for a corner outfielder, and may never have enough. And he can hit for average and take a walk. He would be alright on the yankees though, you guys should keep him. Maybe he will be a 3 or 4 tool player someday.You're pretty much right about him except for his arm. He has a great arm. And it IS a RF arm. (don't use outfield assists to judge how good an outfielders arm is. awful OF's like manny rameriz get alot of assists because guys run on them so much.

Ok, if his arm is better than people are saying, how's his accuracy?

Ok, if his arm is better than people are saying, how's his accuracy?His arm is plus plus all around. Power and accuracy.

No link yet...just heard Melky to braves, laroche to pirates, gonzo to yanks

No link yet...just heard Melky to braves, laroche to pirates, gonzo to yanks

LOL

No link yet...just heard Melky to braves, laroche to pirates, gonzo to yanks

bad bad trade

where'd you hear it? Should be reported widely by now.

This isn't official but it does discuss the trade:

http://buccoblog.mlblogs.com/my_weblog/

This isn't official but it does discuss the trade:

http://buccoblog.mlblogs.com/my_weblog/

That guy can be a complete idiot, I wouldn't trust anything from his blog until you see it somewhere else as well.